Hi all!
Mr John Smith is director of own limited company: John Smith Ltd
Mr John Smith has unpaid PCN for car (registration GV16JKL) which belong to company John Smith Ltd. Warrant of control has been issued for Mr John Smith and car GV16JKL. On V5C (as registered keeper) is name Mr John Smith. Can bailiff took the car?
Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
No.
The Ltd company makes a third party claim. The director John Smith makes the claim inhis capacity as director of the limited company.
The more of these items you can get, the stronger your claim, and the better prospects of recovering damages for depriving you of the vehicle.
The bill of sale for the vehicle- or receipt.
The company, the memorandum of articles specifying the vehicle
Evidence of the flow of money to the seller, e.g. screenshots of bank statements showing the transaction
If the vehicle was bought using cash, evidence of withdrawal of the cash, or an explanation of the source of the cash.
The V5 in your company’s name.
If possible, the original advertisement for the sale of the vehicle
The insurance policy on the vehicle,
Evidence of getting vehicle road tax.
The vehicle service history documents - all of them
Give the bailiff, and if known, the creditor a statutory "notice of claim to controlled goods" under Civil Procedure Rule 85.5.
The bailiff will have 3 days to consider your claim, and the creditor has a maximum of 7 days to consider your claim.
After that, if the vehicle is not returned or your claim is disputed, you can file the claim at court under CPR85.7
Under section 3 of the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977, you have a right to claim damages. They come in two elements:
General Damages - these are at the court’s discretion.
Special Damages - these cannot be rebutted by the court.
Start work on gathering evidence for your special damages. If you cannot show evidence, then you cannot claim them.
Special Damages.
Wasted vehicle costs, which may include.
Receipts for vehicle insurance premiums
Receipts for car tax paid on the vehicle
Cost of any parking permits for the vehicle
A single fee of £35 to remove a Notice fixed to the vehicle window using non-removable adhesive
Vehicle hire expenses - receipt invoice, etc.
Taxi rides.
General Damages
A flat rate of £35 a day for the deprivation of the use of the vehicle.
Loss of earnings from being deprived of the vehicle. The formula the court will accept is to calculate the previous 90 days earnings, divided by 90 and multiplied by the number of days the vehicle was taken out of service by the bailiffs.
Loss of earnings cannot include commuting to a fixed place of work. It can include use as a taxi or minicab, or visiting your employer's clients, or Ltd company’s clients, such as a home-visit carer.
The Ltd company makes a third party claim. The director John Smith makes the claim inhis capacity as director of the limited company.
The more of these items you can get, the stronger your claim, and the better prospects of recovering damages for depriving you of the vehicle.
The bill of sale for the vehicle- or receipt.
The company, the memorandum of articles specifying the vehicle
Evidence of the flow of money to the seller, e.g. screenshots of bank statements showing the transaction
If the vehicle was bought using cash, evidence of withdrawal of the cash, or an explanation of the source of the cash.
The V5 in your company’s name.
If possible, the original advertisement for the sale of the vehicle
The insurance policy on the vehicle,
Evidence of getting vehicle road tax.
The vehicle service history documents - all of them
Give the bailiff, and if known, the creditor a statutory "notice of claim to controlled goods" under Civil Procedure Rule 85.5.
The bailiff will have 3 days to consider your claim, and the creditor has a maximum of 7 days to consider your claim.
After that, if the vehicle is not returned or your claim is disputed, you can file the claim at court under CPR85.7
Under section 3 of the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977, you have a right to claim damages. They come in two elements:
General Damages - these are at the court’s discretion.
Special Damages - these cannot be rebutted by the court.
Start work on gathering evidence for your special damages. If you cannot show evidence, then you cannot claim them.
Special Damages.
Wasted vehicle costs, which may include.
Receipts for vehicle insurance premiums
Receipts for car tax paid on the vehicle
Cost of any parking permits for the vehicle
A single fee of £35 to remove a Notice fixed to the vehicle window using non-removable adhesive
Vehicle hire expenses - receipt invoice, etc.
Taxi rides.
General Damages
A flat rate of £35 a day for the deprivation of the use of the vehicle.
Loss of earnings from being deprived of the vehicle. The formula the court will accept is to calculate the previous 90 days earnings, divided by 90 and multiplied by the number of days the vehicle was taken out of service by the bailiffs.
Loss of earnings cannot include commuting to a fixed place of work. It can include use as a taxi or minicab, or visiting your employer's clients, or Ltd company’s clients, such as a home-visit carer.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Thanks for quick and factual reply.
I don't hire a replacement car, is correct claim deprivation of use car at daily basis hire? My car daily basis of hire is more than £35 flat rate, is £163/day, source: www.enterpise.co.uk
"The bailiff will have 3 days to consider your claim, and the creditor has a maximum of 7 days to consider your claim" - working days or calendar days?
Can I apply for injunction myself without solicitor? Can I apply for injunction for return a car without claim of cost of damages (only claim for return injunction cost) because the damages costs are rising everyday, I don't know final costs at the moment-I will know it when car will be returned. Whether issuing of injunctiun precludes later damages claim under Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977 ? Is correct first apply for injunction for return the car and then apply for damages?
If I'm make a court claim as ltd company, my income is 0 or low, can I get help with court fees?
I don't hire a replacement car, is correct claim deprivation of use car at daily basis hire? My car daily basis of hire is more than £35 flat rate, is £163/day, source: www.enterpise.co.uk
"The bailiff will have 3 days to consider your claim, and the creditor has a maximum of 7 days to consider your claim" - working days or calendar days?
Can I apply for injunction myself without solicitor? Can I apply for injunction for return a car without claim of cost of damages (only claim for return injunction cost) because the damages costs are rising everyday, I don't know final costs at the moment-I will know it when car will be returned. Whether issuing of injunctiun precludes later damages claim under Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977 ? Is correct first apply for injunction for return the car and then apply for damages?
If I'm make a court claim as ltd company, my income is 0 or low, can I get help with court fees?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
There is a difference between General Damages and Special Damages.
When bailiffs take a car unlawfully, the creditor is liable for the bailiff.
Solicitors differentiate the damages between special and general, and the difference being that Special Damages are proven damages, such as a car hire receipt, taxis, loss of earnings etc.
Loss of earnings are calculated by taking the preceding 90 ways worked, divided by 90 and multiplied by the number of days, which gives the loss.
It is difficult to reclaim car hire as well as loss of earnings, but a combination of the two is acceptable for calculating the loss of earnings for the days without the hired car.
Taxi receipts are paid at the cash value paid, plus statutory interest 8%.
General damages are £35 a day depending on the value of the car. A Porsche Cayenne attracts a higher value. You get that on the days a hire car was not available.
There is also a fixed charge of £35 for cleaning off the Warning of Immobilisation that the bailiff fixed to the car windows using a non-removable adhesive.
If your damages are continuing, then the solicitor will set your damages to a fixed date of judgment, plus continuing damages per day until the car is returned to service.
A Ltd company cannot reclaim court fees under the Help with Fees scheme. Only a person.
You may as well have a solicitor do it for you because the creditor pays them, and bailiff companies must lodge insurance with the creditor before taking on enforcement work.
So solicitors negotiate your payout (damages) plus your costs without going to court. The creditor then recovers that from the bailiff company, or their insurance.
I wouldn't attempt a DIY injunction unless you know how to engage a creditor in negotiations.
I would make a simple letter of claim addressed to the creditor, and copied to the bailiff company marked For Information Only.
Set out what the bailiff is doing wrong.
Say what you want the creditor to do, and how much to pay.
Give your bank account details for payment
Set a deadline saying that you will instruct a solicitor if the deadline passes without complying with your requests.
When bailiffs take a car unlawfully, the creditor is liable for the bailiff.
Solicitors differentiate the damages between special and general, and the difference being that Special Damages are proven damages, such as a car hire receipt, taxis, loss of earnings etc.
Loss of earnings are calculated by taking the preceding 90 ways worked, divided by 90 and multiplied by the number of days, which gives the loss.
It is difficult to reclaim car hire as well as loss of earnings, but a combination of the two is acceptable for calculating the loss of earnings for the days without the hired car.
Taxi receipts are paid at the cash value paid, plus statutory interest 8%.
General damages are £35 a day depending on the value of the car. A Porsche Cayenne attracts a higher value. You get that on the days a hire car was not available.
There is also a fixed charge of £35 for cleaning off the Warning of Immobilisation that the bailiff fixed to the car windows using a non-removable adhesive.
If your damages are continuing, then the solicitor will set your damages to a fixed date of judgment, plus continuing damages per day until the car is returned to service.
A Ltd company cannot reclaim court fees under the Help with Fees scheme. Only a person.
You may as well have a solicitor do it for you because the creditor pays them, and bailiff companies must lodge insurance with the creditor before taking on enforcement work.
So solicitors negotiate your payout (damages) plus your costs without going to court. The creditor then recovers that from the bailiff company, or their insurance.
I wouldn't attempt a DIY injunction unless you know how to engage a creditor in negotiations.
I would make a simple letter of claim addressed to the creditor, and copied to the bailiff company marked For Information Only.
Set out what the bailiff is doing wrong.
Say what you want the creditor to do, and how much to pay.
Give your bank account details for payment
Set a deadline saying that you will instruct a solicitor if the deadline passes without complying with your requests.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Solicitors are excluded from this case. I have no money for them (I'm with Universal Credit at the moment). I have to do everything myself.
I think I can't claim loss of earnings because I don't lose the work which never get however without the car I can't get the work (many offers of work is beyond the reach of public transport and impossible to carry tools, materials...).
The Notice Of Claim To Controlled Goods, Return Car Request, Notice Of Intention To Apply To Court For Injunction has been sent to creditor and bailiff company. They don't respond-they don't want to negotiate. Only remained injunction.
I think I can't claim loss of earnings because I don't lose the work which never get however without the car I can't get the work (many offers of work is beyond the reach of public transport and impossible to carry tools, materials...).
The Notice Of Claim To Controlled Goods, Return Car Request, Notice Of Intention To Apply To Court For Injunction has been sent to creditor and bailiff company. They don't respond-they don't want to negotiate. Only remained injunction.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
I'm aware that solicitors ask for £4000+ advance payment on account for a third party claim.
Bailiff companies know high-street solicitors make little money on 3rd party claims, because its not an area of law they want to learn. Bailiff companies exploit that to convert controlled goods knowing the genuine owner has no means to claim his goods.
Conversion of goods is a big money maker for bailiff companies, a £8000 car without its history or keys sold at auction gets about £4000 and that money goes straight in the bailiff companies pockets. The self employed bailiff himself only gets £90, and probably blissfully unaware the goods have been converted. They know the previous owner or debtor is unconcerned about other peoples goods being nabbed.
Your way forward is the Ltd company makes the 3rd party claim and recovers damages from the creditor and gives the creditor and the bailiff (Enforcement Agent) a notice of claim to controlled goods.
The bailiff and the creditor then have a maximum of 10 days to consider your request.
If your claim is refused or not answered, then you file an application at court for a claim to controlled goods CPR 85.5 together with an application for a waiver to the rule requiring claimants to lodge money to the value of the goods into court.
The court will consider your application, and if it's allowed, you may recover damages and costs and an order for the car to be delivered up to the claimant Ltd company.
This article explains more detail:
https://stopthebailiffs.uk/interpleader ... R85.4.html
Bailiff companies know high-street solicitors make little money on 3rd party claims, because its not an area of law they want to learn. Bailiff companies exploit that to convert controlled goods knowing the genuine owner has no means to claim his goods.
Conversion of goods is a big money maker for bailiff companies, a £8000 car without its history or keys sold at auction gets about £4000 and that money goes straight in the bailiff companies pockets. The self employed bailiff himself only gets £90, and probably blissfully unaware the goods have been converted. They know the previous owner or debtor is unconcerned about other peoples goods being nabbed.
Your way forward is the Ltd company makes the 3rd party claim and recovers damages from the creditor and gives the creditor and the bailiff (Enforcement Agent) a notice of claim to controlled goods.
The bailiff and the creditor then have a maximum of 10 days to consider your request.
If your claim is refused or not answered, then you file an application at court for a claim to controlled goods CPR 85.5 together with an application for a waiver to the rule requiring claimants to lodge money to the value of the goods into court.
The court will consider your application, and if it's allowed, you may recover damages and costs and an order for the car to be delivered up to the claimant Ltd company.
This article explains more detail:
https://stopthebailiffs.uk/interpleader ... R85.4.html
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
How the value of the car is determined?
For example if the value of car is a £8000 how much is court fee?
If court agree for waiver to the rule requiring claimants to lodge money to the value of the goods (court fee proportion to outstanding debt for example £400) and car has been sold by bailiff so I get refund for car only £400?
How long take to get a final court decision for return a car under third part claim CPR 85.5?
For example if the value of car is a £8000 how much is court fee?
If court agree for waiver to the rule requiring claimants to lodge money to the value of the goods (court fee proportion to outstanding debt for example £400) and car has been sold by bailiff so I get refund for car only £400?
How long take to get a final court decision for return a car under third part claim CPR 85.5?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
The regulations allow bailiffs to make their own valuations, but they value to an agenda, for example, an exempt car will be valued above £1,350 the threshold it ceases to exempt, or under-value a car for the purpose of damages.
In any case, a bailiffs valuation can be defeated by showing a list of ebay listings showing the same car age mileage having been sold in the last 30 days, and that gives the true auction value of the car.
The value of a car is always the auction value and that place is well under the £1350 exemption threshold.
At the High Court, Queen's Bench Division, claim number HQ16X02544, Miller Vs. Court Enforcement Services Ltd & Anors. Before Master Kay following representation by solicitor Peter Felton Gerber for Karl Smith, he said the value of the goods is the "auction value" and the court followed this recommendation. This case is now used as the authority in setting a value of exempt vehicles.
If a bailiff sells a car, then its not only the replacement of the car, but also the damages set out in my post above. It normally racks up to a sizable sum, and the claim is always brought against the creditor. Never a bailiff company because they mess you have about.
Creditors pay because the bailiff company lodges an insurance policy with the creditor before taking enforcement work on its behalf. The creditors' liabilities are well & truly covered.
The time it takes for the court to decide a CPR85.5 claim, is a how-long-is-a-piece-of-string question. I’ll put you under no illusion this is a walk in the park, and is not done in just a few days.
Having said that, your damages are continuing on a daily rate for as long as you are deprived of the use of your vehicle.
I've seen claims well above £20,000 plus the cost of the car, after it was found in a metal shipping container which had been stopped at Dover Customs trying to export the car. The tracker still worked though the steel shipping container and its position was located on Google Maps heading down the M2 at 56MPH.
I've seen a jalopy - a Vauxhall Zafira, worth £500 - a shed of a car - attract nearly £9000 in damages because it was used as a minicab and the driver recovered his loss of earnings for nearly 10 months while the car was sat abandoned in the yard of an auction company. When the owner collected the car, it was a write off with body parts being ripped off the car, so he got another one with the payout money.
In any case, a bailiffs valuation can be defeated by showing a list of ebay listings showing the same car age mileage having been sold in the last 30 days, and that gives the true auction value of the car.
The value of a car is always the auction value and that place is well under the £1350 exemption threshold.
At the High Court, Queen's Bench Division, claim number HQ16X02544, Miller Vs. Court Enforcement Services Ltd & Anors. Before Master Kay following representation by solicitor Peter Felton Gerber for Karl Smith, he said the value of the goods is the "auction value" and the court followed this recommendation. This case is now used as the authority in setting a value of exempt vehicles.
If a bailiff sells a car, then its not only the replacement of the car, but also the damages set out in my post above. It normally racks up to a sizable sum, and the claim is always brought against the creditor. Never a bailiff company because they mess you have about.
Creditors pay because the bailiff company lodges an insurance policy with the creditor before taking enforcement work on its behalf. The creditors' liabilities are well & truly covered.
The time it takes for the court to decide a CPR85.5 claim, is a how-long-is-a-piece-of-string question. I’ll put you under no illusion this is a walk in the park, and is not done in just a few days.
Having said that, your damages are continuing on a daily rate for as long as you are deprived of the use of your vehicle.
I've seen claims well above £20,000 plus the cost of the car, after it was found in a metal shipping container which had been stopped at Dover Customs trying to export the car. The tracker still worked though the steel shipping container and its position was located on Google Maps heading down the M2 at 56MPH.
I've seen a jalopy - a Vauxhall Zafira, worth £500 - a shed of a car - attract nearly £9000 in damages because it was used as a minicab and the driver recovered his loss of earnings for nearly 10 months while the car was sat abandoned in the yard of an auction company. When the owner collected the car, it was a write off with body parts being ripped off the car, so he got another one with the payout money.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Car has been taken without a valid warrant of control (old address, expired) and notice of enforcement not had been given so the claim can be made also under paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and section 4 of the Torts(Interference with Goods) Act 1977
Is it acceptable claim under CPR 85.5 and 66 Schedule 12 of Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and section 4 of the Torts(Interference with Goods) Act 1977 at the same time?
Is it acceptable claim under CPR 85.5 and 66 Schedule 12 of Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and section 4 of the Torts(Interference with Goods) Act 1977 at the same time?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
No. you can't bring both applications.
If you don't have enough money to pay a solicitor to do a third party claim, then do a money claim for damages to the date of filing and continuing damages until the car is returned or the replacement cost has been paid.
It works out very expensive for bailiffs doing a part 7 claim only.
Most only use part 7 for low value cars or end of life vehicles because it attracts the most amount of money.
Post up a picture of the bailiffs documents and I'll see what works best for you.
Several years ago, Newlyn sold a car at auction for just £57 but it landed the council a shade over £5500 plus costs.
If you don't have enough money to pay a solicitor to do a third party claim, then do a money claim for damages to the date of filing and continuing damages until the car is returned or the replacement cost has been paid.
It works out very expensive for bailiffs doing a part 7 claim only.
Most only use part 7 for low value cars or end of life vehicles because it attracts the most amount of money.
Post up a picture of the bailiffs documents and I'll see what works best for you.
Several years ago, Newlyn sold a car at auction for just £57 but it landed the council a shade over £5500 plus costs.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
What power has court under CPR 85.5, what possibilities does the court have? Under paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 court may order return car to the debtor.
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Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
The court does not hold power under CPR what that does is allow you to make the claim in court (for the dispute).
So you take the claim into court under the CPR that applies, then apply the relevant law to the case.
So you take the claim into court under the CPR that applies, then apply the relevant law to the case.
On the path to become an 'activist lawyer'
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An awake populous is a bailiffs worst nightmare
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An awake populous is a bailiffs worst nightmare
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
CPR 85.5 is for third parties and paragraph 66 is a remedy for debtors.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Is there any time limit for apply to court under CPR 85.5?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
The rules only state the bailiff must inform the creditor in three days and the creditor has seven days to respond.
There is no limit to file the application at court if you want to maintain your claim after it has been disputed, or the 10 days has lapsed.
The rules are: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/proce ... goods#85.5
The choice is yours, let the goods be sold at auction, then recover their replacement cost from the creditor, or file the application if you want the goods back.
There is no limit to file the application at court if you want to maintain your claim after it has been disputed, or the 10 days has lapsed.
The rules are: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/proce ... goods#85.5
The choice is yours, let the goods be sold at auction, then recover their replacement cost from the creditor, or file the application if you want the goods back.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Can I do it at 2 steps:
- 1st apply under CPR 85.5 for return car without claim damages
- 2nd when get back the car (success 1st step) apply for loss and damages under paragraph 66(5) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, Section 4 of the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977
Is it correct? Does one claim (CPR 85.5) exclude the other?
- 1st apply under CPR 85.5 for return car without claim damages
- 2nd when get back the car (success 1st step) apply for loss and damages under paragraph 66(5) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, Section 4 of the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977
Is it correct? Does one claim (CPR 85.5) exclude the other?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
No it doesn't, but Ive never seen an action for third party claimed goods and a claim for damages in respect of them done in separate applications as you describe.
Paragraph 66 is only a remedy for debtors, and third parties make their claim under the Torts Act. I would go with section 3 for damages, instead of section 4 and not make an claim or application under paragraph 66.
I can really see you getting into a mess with this.
Get a solicitor, the creditor pays your legal costs and they recover it from the bailiff company.
Paragraph 66 is only a remedy for debtors, and third parties make their claim under the Torts Act. I would go with section 3 for damages, instead of section 4 and not make an claim or application under paragraph 66.
I can really see you getting into a mess with this.
Get a solicitor, the creditor pays your legal costs and they recover it from the bailiff company.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Section 3 mean money claim online?
Can I claim money claim online for example every month and do that for several months, for example on 1/07 make claim for damages for period 1-30/06, then on 1/08 make claim for period 1-30/07, then on 1/09 make third party claim 85.5?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
A third party claim is made under CPR 85.4.
Its called a "notice of claim to controlled goods", it must be accompanies by supporting evidence that you own the goods (vehicle).
When the period of 10 days has passed, apply to the court under CPR 85.5.
A solicitor will file a Form N244, a statement, exhibit, draft order, and apply for costs.
You make your claim for damages with your application.
I accept that some court staff tell applicants to do a form N1 with your application, but that is not what CPR 85.5 states.
If you are claiming continuing damages then include them in your statement.
You calculate and claim damages to the date of your statement, and continuing damages until the goods are returned.
In your statement, you must identify and separate your special damages and general damages.
I recommend not doing this as a litigant in person. The creditor always pays your costs so you might as well get lawyered up. Creditors have deep pockets and are protected by indemnity insurance provided by the bailiff company.
Its called a "notice of claim to controlled goods", it must be accompanies by supporting evidence that you own the goods (vehicle).
When the period of 10 days has passed, apply to the court under CPR 85.5.
A solicitor will file a Form N244, a statement, exhibit, draft order, and apply for costs.
You make your claim for damages with your application.
I accept that some court staff tell applicants to do a form N1 with your application, but that is not what CPR 85.5 states.
If you are claiming continuing damages then include them in your statement.
You calculate and claim damages to the date of your statement, and continuing damages until the goods are returned.
In your statement, you must identify and separate your special damages and general damages.
I recommend not doing this as a litigant in person. The creditor always pays your costs so you might as well get lawyered up. Creditors have deep pockets and are protected by indemnity insurance provided by the bailiff company.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
The witness statement and exhibits (proof of damages) must be attached with N244 form at the day application is submitted to the court or can be delivered at later time?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
- Is there a time limit for made a complaint to council?
- When car has been sold, the value is based on ebay auction (bidding) or ebay buy it now? Bidding price mostly is lower than "Buy it now"
- Policeman assisted bailiff in the theft of car-despite to invalid warrant, not given a notice of enforcement, goods belong not to debtor he decide that bailiff action is legally and car must be removed. Policeman is guilty and police should also pay the damages. Where to send a complaint?
- The council informed that car has been sold but I didn't receive anythink about sold. What they should give me?
- When car has been sold, the value is based on ebay auction (bidding) or ebay buy it now? Bidding price mostly is lower than "Buy it now"
- Policeman assisted bailiff in the theft of car-despite to invalid warrant, not given a notice of enforcement, goods belong not to debtor he decide that bailiff action is legally and car must be removed. Policeman is guilty and police should also pay the damages. Where to send a complaint?
- The council informed that car has been sold but I didn't receive anythink about sold. What they should give me?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
There is no time limit to make a complaint.
From experience, complaints seldom work.
The value of the car is the bidding price. But you must complete a form V888 from the DVLA, contact the new registered keeper and ask for the bill of sale.
This catches out bailiffs lying about the sale price of the car to put it above £1350 to be exempt goods, or convert the proceeds to their own use.
If the warrant is invalid, then you need to show why it was invalid o the date the car was taken.
In enforcement impropriety cases, some solicitors prefer going after the assisting police force because of the deep pockets. Others prefer the creditor because local authorities have less experienced lawyers. They avoid bailiff companies now, because their lawyers work exclusively in defending enforcement claims and applications for redress.
The police are not liable if the goods do not belong to the debtor, so a solicitor won't want to bring the action against the police in this circumstance. Instead they prefer to pursue the creditor. Again, it's the money trail. There is a big fat insurance policy that protects creditors from enforcement impropriety carried out on its behalf.
You need to have a damages assessment made, then a fact-find into where the enforcement breaches took place, then create a roadmap to solve the claim with the creditor.
When goods are sold, the bailiff must give a notice of sale, that is a prescribed document which gives the sale price. If you didn't get one then that is a breach in its own right.
This article explains more. https://stopthebailiffs.uk/bailiff-sold ... -sale.html
Start by asking for a statement of account. If you want to hang a bailiff, then give him a rope to do it with. They cant retract a statement of account when things go tits up.
From experience, complaints seldom work.
The value of the car is the bidding price. But you must complete a form V888 from the DVLA, contact the new registered keeper and ask for the bill of sale.
This catches out bailiffs lying about the sale price of the car to put it above £1350 to be exempt goods, or convert the proceeds to their own use.
If the warrant is invalid, then you need to show why it was invalid o the date the car was taken.
In enforcement impropriety cases, some solicitors prefer going after the assisting police force because of the deep pockets. Others prefer the creditor because local authorities have less experienced lawyers. They avoid bailiff companies now, because their lawyers work exclusively in defending enforcement claims and applications for redress.
The police are not liable if the goods do not belong to the debtor, so a solicitor won't want to bring the action against the police in this circumstance. Instead they prefer to pursue the creditor. Again, it's the money trail. There is a big fat insurance policy that protects creditors from enforcement impropriety carried out on its behalf.
You need to have a damages assessment made, then a fact-find into where the enforcement breaches took place, then create a roadmap to solve the claim with the creditor.
When goods are sold, the bailiff must give a notice of sale, that is a prescribed document which gives the sale price. If you didn't get one then that is a breach in its own right.
This article explains more. https://stopthebailiffs.uk/bailiff-sold ... -sale.html
Start by asking for a statement of account. If you want to hang a bailiff, then give him a rope to do it with. They cant retract a statement of account when things go tits up.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Vehicle has been sold, but the bailiff did not give a valuation or enable you to get one.
Paragraph 36 of Schedule 12 of the TCEA 2007 states:
36(1)Before the end of the minimum period, the enforcement agent must—
(a)make or obtain a valuation of the controlled goods in accordance with regulations;
(b)give the debtor, and separately any co-owner, an opportunity to obtain an independent valuation of the goods.
(2)In this paragraph “minimum period” means the period specified by regulations under—
(a)paragraph 49, in the case of securities;
(b)paragraph 39, in any other case
How the valuation opportunity should look like in practice?
Paragraph 36 of Schedule 12 of the TCEA 2007 states:
36(1)Before the end of the minimum period, the enforcement agent must—
(a)make or obtain a valuation of the controlled goods in accordance with regulations;
(b)give the debtor, and separately any co-owner, an opportunity to obtain an independent valuation of the goods.
(2)In this paragraph “minimum period” means the period specified by regulations under—
(a)paragraph 49, in the case of securities;
(b)paragraph 39, in any other case
How the valuation opportunity should look like in practice?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Valuations aren't needed because the bailiff sold a car not belonging to the debtor. The owner can recover the replacement cost and damages from the creditor.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
1. What is difference between claim under CPR 85.5 and CPR 85.7? If baliff company/council ignored Notice To Controlled Goods and sold car, submit application to the court under CPR 85.5 or 85.7?
2. Can I claim costs of legal represantation in court if win the case?
3. Can I be the a litigant in person (person who goes to court to represent themselves without a lawyer or legal counsel), whether it is required by law legal representation when claim under CPR85.5/85.7?
4. If is not required, can I claim £18/h under Civil Procedure Rule 48 Practice Direction 52.4?
5. Car was sold and it's used (milage increases, condition worsens). Can I claim cost of daily hire? Renting costs money. I checked with Enterprise Rent A Car and cost of daily hire of this class of vehicle is £169/day
2. Can I claim costs of legal represantation in court if win the case?
3. Can I be the a litigant in person (person who goes to court to represent themselves without a lawyer or legal counsel), whether it is required by law legal representation when claim under CPR85.5/85.7?
4. If is not required, can I claim £18/h under Civil Procedure Rule 48 Practice Direction 52.4?
5. Car was sold and it's used (milage increases, condition worsens). Can I claim cost of daily hire? Renting costs money. I checked with Enterprise Rent A Car and cost of daily hire of this class of vehicle is £169/day
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
Car was sold, the registration plate has been changed to private. If third party claim succeeds, the court may undo the sale and registration? Whether the change of registration plate will not make more difficult the court proceeding?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
The registration plate not showing in the DVLA database "Vehicle details could not be found". I call DVLA, they said the registration has been changed to private.
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
It's the vehicle identification number that identifies it. Not the number plate.
When I do a 3rd party claim on a vehicle that has been sold, I only apply to the court to undo the sale if the car is rare or cannot be easily replaced.
Otherwise, the client claims the replacement cost of the vehicle together with a list of special damages and general damages according to a formula.
The Torts Act does give the bailiff a choice on whether to pay the replacement cost or return the original vehicle. Under section 3 it states: (highlighted)
(a)an order for delivery of the goods, and for payment of any consequential damages, or
(b)an order for delivery of the goods, but giving the defendant the alternative of paying damages by reference to the value of the goods, together in either alternative with payment of any consequential damages, or
(c)damages.
If the client isn't fussy about getting the original vehicle back, then let the bailiff choose from the above.
In several cases, where the court ordered the bailiff to deliver up the vehicle, that has been sold, that presents the bailiff with a problem.
Get the vehicle back from whoever has bought it, or he is on the hook for contempt of court.
In the former, and if the new owner has modified the vehicle, that lands the bailiff another problem. Section 6 states (highlighted)
Allowance for improvement of the goods.
(1)If in proceedings for wrongful interference against a person (the “improver”) who has improved the goods, it is shown that the improver acted in the mistaken but honest belief that he had a good title to them, an allowance shall be made for the extent to which, at the time as at which the goods fall to be valued in assessing damages, the value of the goods is attributable to the improvement.
(2)If, in proceedings for wrongful interference against a person (“the purchaser”) who has purported to purchase the goods—
(a)from the improver, or
(b)where after such a purported sale the goods passed by a further purported sale on one or more occasions, on any such occasion,
it is shown that the purchaser acted in good faith, an allowance shall be made on the principle set out in subsection (1).
When I do a 3rd party claim on a vehicle that has been sold, I only apply to the court to undo the sale if the car is rare or cannot be easily replaced.
Otherwise, the client claims the replacement cost of the vehicle together with a list of special damages and general damages according to a formula.
The Torts Act does give the bailiff a choice on whether to pay the replacement cost or return the original vehicle. Under section 3 it states: (highlighted)
(a)an order for delivery of the goods, and for payment of any consequential damages, or
(b)an order for delivery of the goods, but giving the defendant the alternative of paying damages by reference to the value of the goods, together in either alternative with payment of any consequential damages, or
(c)damages.
If the client isn't fussy about getting the original vehicle back, then let the bailiff choose from the above.
In several cases, where the court ordered the bailiff to deliver up the vehicle, that has been sold, that presents the bailiff with a problem.
Get the vehicle back from whoever has bought it, or he is on the hook for contempt of court.
In the former, and if the new owner has modified the vehicle, that lands the bailiff another problem. Section 6 states (highlighted)
Allowance for improvement of the goods.
(1)If in proceedings for wrongful interference against a person (the “improver”) who has improved the goods, it is shown that the improver acted in the mistaken but honest belief that he had a good title to them, an allowance shall be made for the extent to which, at the time as at which the goods fall to be valued in assessing damages, the value of the goods is attributable to the improvement.
(2)If, in proceedings for wrongful interference against a person (“the purchaser”) who has purported to purchase the goods—
(a)from the improver, or
(b)where after such a purported sale the goods passed by a further purported sale on one or more occasions, on any such occasion,
it is shown that the purchaser acted in good faith, an allowance shall be made on the principle set out in subsection (1).
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
It is the buyer's responsibility to check the "cleanliness" of the purchase car before buying it. The buyer called and asked for keys and V5C. The buyer was then made aware that he was buying a stolen car by bailiff (txt message with this info was sent to him). Also proper letter was sent to DVLA.
Whether apply to court to undo sale only, excludes the right to claim damages (deprivation of used car, modificatiom made by new buyer, etc.)?
Whether apply to court to undo sale only, excludes the right to claim damages (deprivation of used car, modificatiom made by new buyer, etc.)?
Re: Bailiff taken Ltd car for director unpaid PCN
The claim for the return of the car doesn't exclude the right to claim general and special damages.
The damages are qualified according to a formula that is based on the supporting evidence.
The damages are qualified according to a formula that is based on the supporting evidence.