High court enforcement agent charges fees from start of visit

[paulg401981]

Hi all, I am currently trying to take an enforcement company to small claims to get back fees that were unlawfully added during a visit to my business.

The enforcement agent turned up at around midday on the day of visit and explained why he was there, my response now I know should have been different but I expressed my view that the payment was under a payment plan and I had no clue they were coming as I had no letter. I Asked him how much he needed to settle today, the amount he gave me was about 2k over what I was expecting. I was furious as I couldn’t believe I owed that much, at the time I explained that I had been making payments so believed the figure to be incorrect

At this point I still have not seen a Writ and no enforcement letter so as I was no present he was able to charge what ever he liked (it was all done over the phone as one of my employees phoned me to explain he was there.

After expressing concern I did not owe that much and how it has cost this much the agent told me that I had to pay the full amount today or he would be forced to remove items etc etc. I had cash in my pocket having had an invoice just settle the day before so offered nearly half the sum and requested some kind of offer to allow time to find the rest, he refused and said the full amount is due and the phone call ended.

I found a further amount of money in less than an hour of the first phone call, phoned back and offered two thirds of the figure and still was refused. Another 20 minutes later I find the full amount and phone and offer a full settlement figure and offer to pay but he had to come and collect the cash from my home where I was looking after my 2 young kids that day and i’d Pay the rest by bank transfer.
The agent came and collected the cash and upon my request for the breakdown of fees etc he refused and told me he did not have the breakdown and I’d have to approach the original clients solicitor who sent it to court......which I did by email. I still see no writ, he flashes an iPad screen in front of me.

So I’m left confused having paid out a substantial amount of money for something I have no idea what it was, a third of the cost was unknown to me.

This is were the lies start, I finally get through to the company who enforced the writ and they explained that the compliancey fees, stage 1, stage 2 and removal of goods fees were all added, at this point my head was about to explode as when I recall the original phone call I asked how much I owed at the very beginning and the only figure I was ever told was this full amount with all fees applied. I requested proof they actually sent the letter of enforcement but they told me it was not a requirement to prove, but they have a tick box on their system to say it was sent......

So I entered into their internal complaints procedure and finally got a response and it was denied and they say all fees were added correctly based on the report from the agent, so I sent some evidence which proves I was trying to find the full sum straight away after the first phone call etc and still the appeal complaint is refused.

I get the statement from the agent in this response and its full of absolute lies as he is obviously trying to cover his back.

So I am going through a court claim as we speak to which Ive just had the defence back and its full of conflicts and lies........ funny thing is when you tell the truth with phone logs and text messages the truth is easy to tell but they have the money to pay solicitors to legally bamboozle the case.

The times he enforced the fee’s are laughable including them stating they enforced the removal of good fee 10 minutes after he left the premesis, and 40 minutes after I offered the full settlement, proven by my bank statement I have from the bank for the BACS transfer I made to their account.

He also says he took control of a van outside my work.......which did not belong to me, and it was the first I ever knew about it, shouldn’t they need to request some info about a vehicle before just choosing any car outside?

So all in all I feel sick about the lies, they rely heavily on the fact that he claims I refused to make payment at any time so the fees were added, but if anyone was told they must pay 2k more than what the debt was they too would say that’s wrong, I never refused to pay I just questioned that the amount was wrong and he never once title me it was because of the fees. Lack of seeing a writ meant I did not know what he was there to actually collect.

He even states he left a notice of removal at my work (he only had an iPad so how).

I am worried that because I have no legal representation this will go no further than him saying a refused to pay, I have texts, statements, and phone logs all going against his version of events for timings of adding each stage but I just worry about their solicitor getting me on a technicality.

[paulg401981]

I guess the things I’m trying to find out is how much does an agents word have over mine? His entire statement is based on his word, I have evidence to back mine version of events up, however they have heavily leaned on me proving that I said what I said on the phone......surely they would be put to the same to prove what they said?

Also they ask me to prove I did not receive the enforcement letter..........I mean how can I possibly do that

And what is the process of taking control of a vehicle, surely they can just take control of any vehicle they find close by without even discussing it or requesting info or even telling me they did so, I didn’t get paperwork given to me to explain they had done so either, first time I knew about it was when they filed their defence.

[mmf]

I'm in your boat. Ask them for proof of posting. That onus is on them apparently. It's where I started to get no response.

[zeke]

Hi all, I am currently trying to take an enforcement company to small claims to get back fees that were unlawfully added during a visit to my business.

The procedure to challenge bailiffs fees isn't in the small claims court. It is a detailed assessment hearing.

You don't even need to tell the bailiff company and they usually only learn of the outcome after the order has been made.

Here is how to apply for a detailed assssmeent.

The enforcement agent turned up at around midday on the day of visit and explained why he was there, my response now I know should have been different but I expressed my view that the payment was under a payment plan

If you want to pay in instalments, then do a change of circumstances, and that takes all the bailiffs fees off the table in one swoop. Here is how to apply for a stay of execution and a variation.

and I had no clue they were coming as I had no letter. I Asked him how much he needed to settle today, the amount he gave me was about 2k over what I was expecting. I was furious as I couldn’t believe I owed that much, at the time I explained that I had been making payments so believed the figure to be incorrect

You cannot take a bailiff word for it. The only reliable way to see how you owe is to take the judgment debt and subtract the money you have paid. That leaves the Amount Outstanding.

At this point I still have not seen a Writ and no enforcement letter

If the bailiff company is DCBL, then you don't need to prove you did not get a Notice of Enfoircement. They systematically exclude the NOE and you can give the judgment of Rooftops South West Ltd & anors vs. DCBL & Claire Sanbdbrook & Anor EWHC 2798 (QB) [2018]

so as I was no present he was able to charge what ever he liked (it was all done over the phone as one of my employees phoned me to explain he was there.

After expressing concern I did not owe that much and how it has cost this much the agent told me that I had to pay the full amount today or he would be forced to remove items etc etc. I had cash in my pocket having had an invoice just settle the day before so offered nearly half the sum and requested some kind of offer to allow time to find the rest, he refused and said the full amount is due and the phone call ended.

You need to stop calling the bailiffs they will mess you about and throw the phone down.

I found a further amount of money in less than an hour of the first phone call, phoned back and offered two thirds of the figure and still was refused. Another 20 minutes later I find the full amount and phone and offer a full settlement figure and offer to pay but he had to come and collect the cash from my home where I was looking after my 2 young kids that day and i’d Pay the rest by bank transfer.
The agent came and collected the cash and upon my request for the breakdown of fees etc he refused and told me he did not have the breakdown and I’d have to approach the original clients solicitor who sent it to court......which I did by email. I still see no writ, he flashes an iPad screen in front of me.

So I’m left confused having paid out a substantial amount of money for something I have no idea what it was, a third of the cost was unknown to me.

This is were the lies start, I finally get through to the company who enforced the writ and they explained that the compliancey fees, stage 1, stage 2 and removal of goods fees were all added, at this point my head was about to explode as when I recall the original phone call I asked how much I owed at the very beginning and the only figure I was ever told was this full amount with all fees applied. I requested proof they actually sent the letter of enforcement but they told me it was not a requirement to prove, but they have a tick box on their system to say it was sent......

So I entered into their internal complaints procedure and finally got a response and it was denied and they say all fees were added correctly based on the report from the agent, so I sent some evidence which proves I was trying to find the full sum straight away after the first phone call etc and still the appeal complaint is refused.

I get the statement from the agent in this response and its full of absolute lies as he is obviously trying to cover his back.

So I am going through a court claim as we speak to which Ive just had the defence back and its full of conflicts and lies........ funny thing is when you tell the truth with phone logs and text messages the truth is easy to tell but they have the money to pay solicitors to legally bamboozle the case.

Its designed to confuse you. Stop all comms with the bailiff company. Put a stop on the enforcement power.

The times he enforced the fee’s are laughable including them stating they enforced the removal of good fee 10 minutes after he left the premesis, and 40 minutes after I offered the full settlement, proven by my bank statement I have from the bank for the BACS transfer I made to their account.

He also says he took control of a van outside my work.......which did not belong to me, and it was the first I ever knew about it, shouldn’t they need to request some info about a vehicle before just choosing any car outside?

So all in all I feel sick about the lies, they rely heavily on the fact that he claims I refused to make payment at any time so the fees were added, but if anyone was told they must pay 2k more than what the debt was they too would say that’s wrong, I never refused to pay I just questioned that the amount was wrong and he never once title me it was because of the fees. Lack of seeing a writ meant I did not know what he was there to actually collect.

He even states he left a notice of removal at my work (he only had an iPad so how).

I am worried that because I have no legal representation this will go no further than him saying a refused to pay, I have texts, statements, and phone logs all going against his version of events for timings of adding each stage but I just worry about their solicitor getting me on a technicality.

Your only remedies are to either:

Apply for a stay of execution and a variation - that deletes all the fees, no matter how much they are. You are not normally awarded costs for the application.

Challenge the fees, this only stays the execution temporarily until a costs judge has decided whether the fees are compliant. You are usually awarded costs and will be dependant on how outrageous the fees are. You can even get exemplary costs if you can show the bailiff company is frivolous, scurrilous or vexatious (Newlyn Plc likes to play these cards).

A recent example of an exemplary costs award arose when a debtor proved a bailiff company colluded with a private individual masquerading as an advice service whose website gave wrong advice to mislead the debtor to benefit the bailiff or his firm from unjust enrichment.

[zeke]

I guess the things I’m trying to find out is how much does an agents word have over mine? His entire statement is based on his word, I have evidence to back mine version of events up,

The court follows whoever can prove the most.

When I prepare a claim or application for a solicitor to attend court, I always try to gather the evidence to support the grounds of the claim and give them in an exhibit sheet.

however they have heavily leaned on me proving that I said what I said on the phone......surely they would be put to the same to prove what they said?

Also they ask me to prove I did not receive the enforcement letter..........I mean how can I possibly do that

It's not for you to prove a negative, but the law is weighted on the side of the bailiff.

Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 states that service by post is deemed to be given when it is correctly addressed and postage paid unless evidence to the contrary is proved.

When a draft court documents, I have to prove that service of a Notice of Enforcement (NOE) has not been effected. I can do this in several ways.

• The address on the judgment is wrong or has a typo
  The bailiff company is DCBL - exhibit a copy of the judgment from South West Rooftops Ltd vs. DCBL 2018.
  The address attended is different from the judgment address (typically in Newlyn PLc and Marston drive-by clamping events)
  The debtor has changed address recently.

And what is the process of taking control of a vehicle,

Only three ways that can be done.

• Clamp it and give a statutory notice.
  Remove it to storage and give a statutory notice to the debtor.
  Enter a controlled goods agreement according to a prescribed format.

surely they can just take control of any vehicle they find close by

Bailiffs cannot do that. Paragraph 10 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 states the bailiff may only take control of goods belonging to the debtor.

without even discussing it or requesting info

I accept its an old decision from 2012, but I quote it in interpleader claims documents. The LOcal Government Ombudsman said it is not unreasonable a bailiff should make enquiries as to the ownership of the goods before (taking control of) them.

The report should be exhibited in all interpleader claims involving a drive-by clamping event.

or even telling me they did so, I didn’t get paperwork given to me to explain they had done so either,

The bailiff is in breach of paragraph 33(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. You can sue for damages.

first time I knew about it was when they filed their defence.

A defence? Have you made a claim?

[zeke]

I'm in your boat. Ask them for proof of posting. That onus is on them apparently. It's where I started to get no response.

The law does not require bailiff companies to get proof of posting when sending a Notice of Enforcement.

The bailiff's defence fails when they attend an address that is different from the address on the warrant or writ. They are required to re-issue a fresh notice when they find the debtor's address is different. I use this when applying for a detailed assessment because it revokes all the fees and charges under regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.

[power of print]

I have wondered for some time how agents working for companies who operate from ipad and tablets and have NO statutory forms on paper with them can be compliant with the regulations. How do they leave " A copy " of the form ?

[zeke]

They carry pre-printed forms in the van.

The iPad is only for accessing the Customer relationship management (CRM) system.

One company tried thermal-printing receipts and other documents, but the technology was unreliable and expensive versus handwritten receipts.

[paulg401981]

I have the results having taken this case to the small claims court.
Is it ok to say here? Or not yet?
I guess judgement has been made, but it was all very interesting, especially for future bailiff action.

[zeke]

Let's see it.

[paulg401981]

I don’t have the ruling in writing yet, but It was awarded in my favour.

[Syd Snitkin]

Can you post what happened?

[paulg401981]

Ok so the judge decided the following:

Notice of enforcement proven to be sent (a joke in my opinion as it’s a form in a computer system that simple gives a date it was printed! Not sent)

There was no CGA entered into so therefore he ruled that stage 1 fees could not be rightly charged so I was awarded the stage one fees with interested back, however it was decided they jumped straight to stage 2 so infact I was charged stage 2 fee (or was not awarded this stage back), however the funniest point was the sale of goods stage.

If you remember from my original post I mentioned that according to the paperwork that suddenly appeared in the defence (which was never handed to me) it states that the time was 40 minutes after the full amount was offered to settle the debt due. My bank statement proved the payment but they argued in court that the extra cash that the bailiff had to visit my home to collect was not offered until he visited me to collect it.
This was incorrect wholly, and they were trying hard to cover their mistake with the timeline. When they entered court they made an “amendment” to the evidence which happened to be the time on this form, which i had never seen before, and tried to blame the pressures of the job in the mistake.
However the judge requested how the vehicle they took control of was done, and the answer was that they just filled in the form, which they didn’t actually do, so lacked evidence of actually taking control of the vehicle and therefore charging fees for something that didn’t happen, but the way the judge ruled it was that they had abandoned the supposed “vehicle under control” to go and try to get the rest of the debt.

We obviously know that actually he left because a deal had be struck and he was on his way to collect the money and was not infact still trying to get the full amount from me.

So in lieing to try and cover their backs they ultimately exposed another issue which ruled the sale of goods stage not enforceable so therefore I was awarded that stage also, along with court costs etc.

Annoyingly the statement from the agent mentioned that I apparently threatened to “take my life” which I believe they done to try and paint a picture against me as a person who could not be trusted, I was infact at home with my 1 year old and 4 year old which he knew about.

In court the solicitor and the agent took great pleasure in mentioning that I threatened to (and I quote) “ blow my brains out”
The agent at this point said to the judge he was worried that I was going to bankrupt my business and therefore not pay the debt!! So progressed the stages.

I cannot believe that an agent doesn’t have a duty of care if infact I did, as he says, threaten to “blow my brains out” whilst I was looking after my two young kids.

I am happy with the outcome for sure, and I understand fully why the judge ruled it the way he did, it’s not about what he believes but rather how the law is written and what breached that law, it’s frustrating that they lied about the paperwork, and their absolute disregard for someone’s wellbeing and more bothered about a debt than someone apparently threatening to kill them selves whilst caring for kids.

By the way I certainly did not say such a thing!
This company is not fit to enforce debts, both the agent and one of the directors were questioned by the judge on the fees regulations 2014 and neither knew them enough to answer questions about them without having them infront of them, how is this real? For me they proved that day that they are enforcing debt when not actually knowing what the law states, and is a clear proof that they are gaining based on the false stage progressions.

[zeke]

I am a little puzzled when your earlier post says you took the claim in the small claims court.

This is a high court matter and the examination of the enforcement agents' fees is always by a High Court master under Civil Procedure Rule 84.16

I have never seen a High Court fee dispute being adjudicated in a county court before.

A county court judge is probably not trained in CPR 84.16 to the level of a High Court master, and all the masters with an office at the High Court Masters Corridor know that a certain bailiff company does not give a Notice of Enforcement.

There is an established legal argument that persuades the master that a reconstituted notice is not evidence the bailiff kept a record of the time the bailiff gave the notice to the debtor as required under provision 7.3 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

When applying for a detailed assessment hearing, the solicitor argues that authority on keeping a record of the time the bailiff gave the notice is a certificate of posting from the Post Office. By making a document on a computer program is not authority.

This argument only applies when a bailiff admits he gave the notice by post, however, the regulations provide for other delivery methods.

This argument revoked all the fees and charges because regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations state:

These Regulations apply when an enforcement agent uses the Schedule 12 procedure.

As provision 7.3 is a component part of the Schedule 12 enforcement procedure and did not keep any authority of the time the bailiff gave the notice by post, then the bailiff did not use the Schedule 12 provisions.

Stage 1 enforcement fees apply with the bailiff attends. Not on making a controlled goods agreement.

If the bailiff takes all the money at the first attendance, the debtor is not liable for the second enforcement stage fee, and the debtor may recover it.

If the bailiff did not start removing goods for sale, the debtor may recover the sale stage fee.

A bailiff saying he has called a van is not starting the process of removing goods, and the debtor does not owe the sale stage fee.

Debtors are not liable for the sale stage fee when a truck turns up but without bailiff taking control of any of the debtor's goods.

The regulations state the bailiff must take control of goods using any of four methods.

In your case, the bailiff filling out a document is not a class of taking control of goods.


The regulations giving the four methods a bailiff may take control of goods are in paragraph 13(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, which provides:

Ways of taking control

13(1)To take control of goods an enforcement agent must do one of the following—
(a)secure the goods on the premises on which he finds them;

(b)if he finds them on a highway, secure them on a highway, where he finds them or within a reasonable distance;

(c)remove them and secure them elsewhere;

(d)enter into a controlled goods agreement with the debtor.

Regulations also provide the form and content of a controlled agreement. Crucially, the regulations state that the debtor must sign it.

If you had brought this claim under CPR 84.16 in the High Court under the same set of facts, the master would have given you all the fees back with interest from the date they took the money, plus your costs under CPR 46.5.

[paulg401981]

How ever it did go to small claims and it was ruled as I mention.

The information you mention is not available to anyone to know that there is a procedure to follow when questioning fees that are wrongly applied, the court process had started before I joined this forum so I appreciate what you are saying but it is of no help now as that’s not how it’s progressed.

The judge in question seemed very knowledgeable of this particular area of law and mentioned that he used to have something to do with bailiffs (in what respect I do not know as I was not thinking about that at the time).

It is not DCBL we are talking about so the posting of the letter I doubt would have been proven otherwise, they produced a copy of their CRM report window which had this tick box and seemed to satisfy the judge all matters were covered as is required but of course you and I both know this is unjust but if the law states that’s all they need to do then that’s simply a fault in the law and shows how corrupt the system currently is.

As for the ruling well it’s open to debate but basically we know now that in some way the fees were applied incorrectly.

I don’t know if there is any further action can be taken regards to damages caused because of this, there is certainly a dispute about the agent and the company director and whether or not they showed evidence to question their certification, especially regards the apparent lack of duty of care (or out and out lies) in order to bend the truth to ensure a court case went in their favour.

I did not have a solicitor I couldn’t afford one, it was me against their legal team of solicitors, so I feel rather accomplished to have got anything back frankly, but feel agitated that these clowns can carry on pretending to enforce legally but more likely charging for profit.

[paulg401981]

Just thinking about the comment you make about it being a high court matter, actually it’s not surely??

These are businesses that are setup to enforce a warrant they purchase from the high court?
So therefore they should be treated as nothing more than a profit making business and that is why I believe we have a problem, when ever there is profit to be made opens it up to be abused and rules and laws bent for extra gain.

[zeke]

Last year, a London law firm commissioned a software engineering company, oddly enough, in the Philippines, to create software to enable solicitors to render court documents and statements to bring a detailed assessment of fees charged by a High Court enforcement agent.

The rules of court for disputing fees charged by bailiffs is CPR 84.16

In the Functional Specification document, it stated that the court named on the documents must follow the rules prescribed in Civil Procedure Rule 84 and its sub-sections.

Which state:

Where and how to make applications
84.3

(1) This rule sets out where and how applications referred to in this Part must be made.

(2) Applications referred to in this Part must be made in accordance with the procedure in Part 23 as modified by this Part.

(3) Where there are no pre-existing proceedings, an application referred to in this Part must be made to the County Court.

(4) Where there are pre-existing proceedings, the application must be made to the High Court or the County Court in accordance with rule 23.2.

Rule 23.2 says

Where to make an application
23.2

(1) The general rule is that an application must be made to the court or County Court hearing centre where the claim was started.

(2) If a claim has been transferred to another court, or transferred or sent to another County Court hearing centre since it was started, an application must be made to the court or the County Court hearing centre to which the claim has been transferred or sent, unless there is good reason to make the application to a different court.

(3) If the parties have been notified of a fixed date for the trial, an application must be made to the court where the trial is to take place.

(4) Subject to paragraph (4A), if an application is made before a claim has been started, it must be made to the court where it is likely that the claim to which the application relates will be started unless there is good reason to make the application to a different court.

(4A) An application made in the County Court before a claim has been started may be made at any County Court hearing centre, unless any enactment, rule or practice direction provides otherwise.

(5) If an application is made after proceedings to enforce judgment have begun, it must be made to the court or County Court hearing centre which is dealing with the enforcement of the judgment unless any enactment rule or practice direction provides otherwise.

If you would like me to run your case particulars through the software and generate a report, then let me know and I'll give a list of elements needed to create a report.

[paulg401981]

Hi, is it the particulars of claim I sent to the court you would need?

It get interesting when you compare the evidence I have against their defence......full of lies.

[zeke]

Here is the information I need to make a detailed assessment of High Court enforcement fees.

• Judgment debt amount £ (check it here: https://www.trustonline.org.uk/)
  Judgment date
  Money demanded by the bailiff £
  The date the bailiff made the demand
  Sum (s) of money TAKEN by the bailiff £ (even if it is the same as above)
  Date(s) the money was taken by the bailiff (even if it is the same as above)
  The Creditor is VAT registered? (yes/no) check here: http://www.vat-finder.co.uk/
  Was a Notice of Enforcement given? (yes/no)
  Is the Judgment debtors address the same as the address the bailiff attended? (yes/no) Check judgment debtor address here: https://www.trustonline.org.uk/

If you can give this information, I'll run a detailed assessment.