HCEO visit to our home for Son who does not live here

[PRG70]

Background:
I am aged 71 and my wife 67 and both retired. We live by ourselves in England

Our son who the CCJ was against he is late 20’s. He worked casual for many years during his drug problems and since then has retrained and works mainly in Europe. He was living in East Anglia until earlier this year but do not know where he lives now. We made a point not to ask but are in communication by phone

Our son-in-law and lives in about 10 miles from us where he runs a building services company

Diary of HCEO action:
9th Feb 2019 Letter from Court Enforcement Services arrived. It was franked as 2nd class dated 06-02-19 and addressed to our son.
19th Feb 2019 I spoke to our son on the phone and he asked me to open the letter, I gave him a quick resume of the contents. He told me he would deal with it when he got back to UK as he was working on the continent.
Document 1: Notice of enforcement
Document 2: Notice of enforcement envelope

21st Feb 2019 Doorbell rang at 20:25:28 I saw what I thought was a police officer through our obscured glazed door. When I opened the door he still looked like a police officer but then identified himself as a High Court Enforcement Officer, he then entered the house saying he was here to collect the sum of £4308-11. He quoted this sum as he arrived and as I now understand had already added 2nd enforcement stage and Sale and disposal stage. I told him he could not enter and he said as a High Court Enforcement Officer he had the right to break in if we had not let him in. ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNMENT WEBSITE THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE. He said he was looking for ****** who is our son, but I told him he did not live here, he asked if he ever came here and I said “yes he’s our son” his reply was “he must live here then”. He flashed what he said was ID and it looked like a passport, we were never shown a certificate from either man.
At this point the other man parked his American type pick-up truck on mine and my neighbour’s drives, blocking them both. My neighbour is disabled and when his son-in-law arrived, he had to leave his car in the road. This massive pick-up truck broke and dislodged a paving slab on our walkway at the side of the drive.
Both the men then made their way inside and asked where he was and which room was his. It was obvious that only one bedroom was in use as a bedroom in the bungalow. They wandered around looking at the mail and other documents that I had in my study and they said there is post for him so that confirms he lives here (this was the enforcement letter they had sent and another from Chelmsford Council addressed to him and an ex girlfriend which was unopened). I get quite a lot of mail addressed to him and most of the time put a label on saying “Not at this address and no forwarding address) Again I told them he did not live here and as far as I knew he was working on the continent. They asked me to contact him and I refused at first saying he was probably working and I could not contact him. They then said in that case we are going to take goods to pay for his debt. I TOLD THEM THAT WE WERE PENSIONERS AND DID NOT HAVE THAT SORT OF MONEY AND APART FROM THAT IT WAS NOT OUR DEBT and that they were not going to take our possessions. THEY THEN SAID THEY WOULD PHONE THE POLICE AND I SAID TO DO SO AS IT WAS NOW OBVIOUS THEY WERE HERE TO BULLY AND INTIMIDATE US AND OF COURSE THE POLICE DID NOT ATTEND AT ALL AS I ASSUME THEY HAD NOT CONTACTED THEM. One of them had gone outside and I assumed pretended to phone the police
They said we are going to list goods to seize and said they had rang to get a vehicle to take our possessions away. ( I later deduced this was another lie) One of them went into my study and stated pulling my laptop about. I explained to them that it belong to HP who I worked for until I retired, last communication I had from HP was they were going to collect the laptop as it contained sensitive company data. The answer I got from them was that they clear the computers before they are auctioned and SHOW A RECEIPT OR WE TAKE IT. SOMEONE NEEDS TO TELL THEM THAT FORMATTING A HARD DISC DRIVE DOES NOT DELETE DATA, IT ONLY DELETES INDEXES. Also they cannot take this as I was using it at the time. I am also using the laptop on a development project for a franchise opportunity.
I went into another room and tried to ring our son and eventually succeeded. I told our son what was happening and he asked to be put on to one of the men. Our son explained that he knew the contents of the letter and would deal with it when he returned. The man just said to him in a very aggressive voice “Are you going to pay”. Our son told him he did not have the money and the man replied “then I’m not talking to you” and passed the phone back to me, refusing to talk to him again. The letter I received from them on 3rd Aug 2019 says they spoke to our son several times over the next hour, THAT IS ANOTHER LIE, the total conversation with him was the initial call and that lasted less about 15seconds.
In the meantime the second man had walked into our lounge and had disconnected the TV and HiFi equipment, he had taken the TV, HiFi system ,video recorder and DVD player and put them on the ground outside. This was bullying as the VHS video recorder was worth less than £5. Even though they had taken equipment out of our home THEY HAD NOT GIVEN OR OFFERED EITHER OF US A LIST. The total auction value of all the items including HP’s laptop would have been about £300 (I regularly attend auctions and know the approximate prices these items fetch). I then looked up the receipt for the TV that we purchased from Argos and he just glanced at it and said, “no serial number it could be for any TV” STRANGE IT WAS VERY MAKE AND MODEL SPECIFIC. Just another of their bullying tactics. They also picked up my front door keys without telling me and opened and searched the garage
I went into the lounge and my wife was in tears caused by their aggressive nature. Unbenown to me she had rang our son-in-law to ask for help with this and he agreed to come over from his home 10 miles away. THIS WAS BECAUSE WE HAD ONLY A COUPLE OF HUNDRED POUNDS IN OUR BANK ACCOUNT AND THEY WERE DEMANDING THE EQUIVALENT OF FOUR MONTHS OF OUR PENSION INCOME. I was going to let them take our possessions away as I suspected they were bluffing as the value at auction of all the goods they put on the drive was no more than £300, I also knew I could get a receipt for the laptop computer.
Our son-in-law spoke to them and they refused to take any payment except the complete amount. He also told us in front of them that he needed the money back as it left him and his business finances in a precarious position. Our Son-in-law asked how the amount was made up as it was not written anywhere, they just said look at the back of the Notice of Enforcement although the front says Total sum outstanding is £2578.04 they demanded £4308.11
Our son-in-law then paid the full amount and they completed a receipt for him.
Document 3: Payment receipt
Document 4: Receipt from debit card reader
The men put the equipment back in the lounge and left. Feeling totally shell shocked I WENT TO SHUT THE GARAGE DOOR THEY HAD LEFT OPEN ONLY TO FIND I COULD NOT AS THEY HAD TAKEN OUR FRONT DOOR KEY AND GARAGE REMOTE CONTROL WITH THEM. I could not find the spare remote so had to manually wind down the door. I tried ringing the phone number on the receipt to ask for my keys back but there was just a automatic answer message
There was a knock on our front door about 45 minutes later and they just handed over the keys and left again.

21st Mar 2019 Download Money from SIPP pension for son-in-law
21st Mar 2019 Transferred £4308.11 to son-in-law’s personal bank account
28th Mar 2019 I went to Police Station to complain about behaviour of HCEO’s. They just said, they have unusual powers and go to CAB for advice
29th Mar 2019 Went to Citizen’s Advice to see what I could do about this, took paperwork and spoke to first line contact who took details and make new appointment with a more senior consultant
17th Apr 2019 Appointment at CAB with more senior person
Document 5: email from CAB 170419

16th May 2019 Complaint letters sent to Court Enforcement Services Ltd,
Document 6: letter to Court enforcement services 160519


25th May 2019 Letter received from Court Enforcement Services Ltd to say they need Authorisation to speak to us about the subject. Contacted our son to send authority letter to Court Enforcement Services Ltd. This he sent from Lisbon
Document 9: letter from Court enforcement services 250519
22nd June 2019 Letter received from Court Enforcement Services Ltd to say Sorry for delay replying to email (WHAT EMAIL, it was a letter) containing a full list of the complaints.
Document 10: letter from Court enforcement services 220619

28th June 2019 Statutory declarations completed and sworn to cover just Me and My Wife living at our Home and also that we own all contents as listed
Document 11: statutory declaration-1
Document 12: statutory declaration-2

2nd July 2019 Letter and all documents that cover the complaint sent to Court Enforcement Services Ltd
Document 13: letter to Court enforcement services 020719

3rd August 2019 Letter received from Court Enforcement Services dismissing claim
Document 14: letter from Court enforcement services 030819
What a waste of time this complaints procedure was


Outcome:
This has cost us £5167.73 because we had to take a drawdown from pensions and so had to pay an additional 20% Income Tax on the original sum
I have also spent at least 95 hours of my time on this, my hourly rate is £40.00
How can they get away with treating people of any age in this disgusting manner
They need to be stopped.
How can we get our money back ?
As we have no knowledge of this debt we do not know if it is a credit agreement that is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Colchester Institute did not reply to my question on this. These were the people who took out original CCJ


I understand that the CCJ is now over 6 years old but was just under that when the HCEO’s arrived
Following is the complaint letter I sent to court Enforcement Services Limited in Loughton:
Address
Postcode
16th May 2019

Court Enforcement Services Limited
PO Box 396
Loughton
Essex
IG10 9GL

Your ref:

Dear Sir
This letter is an official complaint against the actions of your company and employees following a visit to my home on 21st February 2019 at 20:25 hours.
The grounds on which I base my complaint are as follows:
1. Neither my wife or my name is ********* and the DEBT IS NOT OURS and never has been
2. The addressee of the “Notice of enforcement” document does not live at this address and has not done so for about 18 months. He works abroad and I don’t know where he lives..
3. It was obvious that only one of the bedrooms was occupied by anyone and that is by me and my wife.
4. We are both elderly pensioners and were treated in a very discourteous manner.
5. They were going to take my work laptop which contains sensitive information and is owned by HP. I said I would have to put a hammer through it to destroy the hard disc. They said they are calling the Police and as asked them to go ahead and get them here. The Police did not turn up and I guess they lied about calling them.
6. We were bullied and intimidated into paying this money even though it was not our debt.
7. One of the men on entry told me if I had not let them in, they were entitled to break in. He obviously has not read https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-bailiffs
8. I got our son on the phone and the conversation with your employee lasted about 5 seconds, consisting of “Are you going to pay” in an aggressive manner to which our son replied “I don’t have the money” your employee said “I am not talking to you” handed me back the phone.
9. Our possessions were taken outside our home and no list was made or made available to us. I showed them the receipt for the TV and they said it does not have the serial number so it could be any TV, The receipt was very make and model specific so their comment was rubbish.
10. My wife was reduced to tears by your disgraceful behaviour and she unbeknown to me phoned our son-in-law to come and sort it out.
11. He came over from his home and your employees insisted on all the money being paid, which he did. The amount he paid was £4308.11
12. I calculate the amount as follows
Debt £2489.77 the sun of £2487.52 is incorrect
Interest 0.52
Compliance stage fee 90.00
1st Enforcement stage 228.00
7.5% of £1489.77 111.73
VAT on 1st Enforcement stage 22.34
Total £2942.36
HOW DO THEY MAKE IT NEARLY £1400 MORE?
13. An Indian sandstone paving slab was broken and dislodged by your employees driving a large American style pickup truck onto my drive.
14. This was also parked on and across my disabled neighbour’s drive who has had a number of hospital visits recently

I require the following to be repaid to me:
The sum of £4308.11 taken by your employees
Plus 20% of the sum paid which is income tax I had to pay on drawing ad-hoc income from my pension, which is £861.62
I have taken 80 hours of my time on this and as I do high level consultancy work on computers I charge £40.00 per hour. I will forgo this £3200.00 if MY money is repaid within 30 days
Total if paid within 30days of date of letter £5169.73


Yours faithfully


my name
CC: People who took original CCJ out

letter from Court enforcement services 030819 page1.pdf

letter from Court enforcement services 030819 page2.pdf

[zeke]

Long story short, this need to be reclaimed in the small claims track because the money was taken under false pretences that you are liable for the debt when you were not.

The theft of the garage door keys should b reported to the police. When bailiffs steal keys and return them later, it means they may have made copies and to give them to someone to burgle the house later.

I wouldn't worry about his how the fees are made up, you are entitled to it all back anyway, plus your damages and losses arising from the tort.

It's not clear how long ago the money was taken, or how it was taken (March 2019?). You might still be able to recover the money taken via a chargeback. This can be applied if you can show you were tricked into giving your card details. https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/Ch ... liffs.html

In an event like this, you can make a EAC2 complaint to question the fitness of the enforcement agent to carry on trading, because he took money from someone he knows is not the debtor, and the court might not want to be seen allowing an enforcement agent to continue exposing innocent people to fraudulent trading as an enforcement agent. https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/EAC2.html

I wouldn't bother complaining to a bailiff company. They will mess you about.

If you bring a claim, your hourly rate is a statutory one under CPR46.5 and provides £19 an hour for your time administration and researching your claim. CPR 27 provides a list of other disbursements available to you.

Looking at the fees out of interest. If you can provide the following information, I'll do the arithmetic and see how much the bailiff took in fees and work out the excess money taken.

1. Judgment debt - I think £2489.77 - you cant take a bailiffs word for it, it must be authority. get it from here https://www.trustonline.org.uk
2. Judgment date
3. Date of Issue on the Notice of Enforcement
4. Amount taken - I think its £4308.11
5. Date the money was taken.
6. Is the creditor VAT registered (yes/no) check at https://vat-search.co.uk

Overcharging with fees and a detailed assessment finding by a costs judge looks very good on an EAC2 complaint.

[PRG70]

Zeke
Thanks for quick reply
1 I could not find the case on trustonline so I called Wolverhampton County Court and they said the amount they were asked to claim was £2369-77 plus costs of £117-75 making £2487-52. I kept a spreadsheet of all my son's debts and the amount owing on the original CCJ was £2489-77 (How did you manage to get to the same amount).
2 Judgement date for original CCJ was 16th April 2013
3 Notice of Enforcement (Date notice issued) 05/02/2019
4 Amount taken £4308-11
5 Money taken on 21/02/2019
6 The creditor is VAT registered.

Thanks
Pat

[zeke]

Your son's detailed assessment is:

Judgment Debt: £2369.77
Judgment date: 16/04/2013
Date money was taken by EA: 21/02/2019
Amount taken by the EA: £4308.11
Number of days from Judgment date to date money taken: 2137 days
Statutory Interest due on the Judgment Debt: £1109.9613
Judgment Debt with Statutory Interest: £3479.7313
Execution Fee: £117.25
'Command Sum' (judgement debt + Interest + Execution Fee): £3596.9813
Date of issue on the Notice of Enforcement: 05/02/2019
Table 2 fees: £459.7736
The debt was paid on the first attendance. The Table 2 fees are made up as follows
Compliance Stage Fee: £75
First Enforcement Stage Fee: £190
First Enforcement Stage Fee 7.5% exceeding £1000: £194.7736
Table 2 fees: £459.7736
Creditor is VAT registered. Creditor reclaims VAT on fees as input tax, see HMRC Internal Manual VBNB41720
Total sum recoverable under the enforcement power: £4056.7549
Amount taken by EA: £4308.11
Date money taken by EA: 21/02/2019
Excess money taken by EA: £251.3551


The number of days between the date the money was taken (21/02/2019) and the date of this application (29/08/2019) is 189 days. Interest due on the excess money taken is £10.4123. The total money owed to and claimed by the Detailed Assessment applicant is £261.77, and continuing each day at the daily rate of £0.0551 per day until the money is returned plus the Applicant's costs of bringing this application.

The debtor does not live or trade at the enforcement address, therefore regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 applies: total owed to the applicant: £711.1287 plus interest from 21/02/2019

The debtor does not live or trade at the enforcement address, money was taken from another person: Money owed to them is £4308.11 plus interest from 21/02/2019 to 29/08/2019 190 days £179.41 bringing a total £4487.52 and continuing at £0.9442 per day until paid, plus costs.

Evidence to be attached to this statement:
i. Screenshot of Judgment £2369.77 from https://www.trustonline.org.uk
ii. Screenshot of Creditor VAT registration from https://vat-search.co.uk
iii. Copy of HMRC Internal Manual VBNB41720. Creditor reclaims VAT on fees as input tax, see HMRC Internal Manual VBNB41720
iv. Copy of HMRC letter of 1 July 2015 confirming creditor reclaims VAT on fees as input tax, see HMRC Internal Manual VBNB41720
v. Evidence of flow of money £4308.11 taken on 21/02/2019

[zeke]

Just to add.

You are not the debtor, so you cannot bring a detailed assessment hearing, because CPR84.16 says A party may make an application to the court to assess the amounts. This means only a party, your son, can apply for a detailed assessment, or instruct a solicitor to do it for him.

If you can show that you were forced to pay "under duress" then you can make a claim through the small claims track using the above arithmetic. Its a simple and cheap process. You can also claim your peripheral damages and disbursements you mentioned in your original post. Those are called Special Damages.

The expression "paid under duress" means a person applies unnecessary pressure on you to make-over a money transfer. From previous claims, it includes clamping a car, refusing to leave the house, calling the police, disconnecting an item of electrical equipment, moving furniture, rummaging the contents of a drawer etc.

[PRG70]

Zeke
Thanks for all your help will keep update on this post
Kind regards
Pat

[John The Baptist]

PRG - You have read the romantic version on how to proceed. I will now attempt to give the not so glamorous version. You will not like it but I hope you may take on board my comments.

1. There was no theft of garage door keys. It was obviously a mistake that was rectified within the hour. No judge in the country will deem this theft.

2. You will most likely not be entitled to any of the money back, let alone damages. Nearly all bailiffs cover themselves in these situations by making it clear that any payment made by a third party is on a voluntary basis. There was no duress. A bailiff is entitled to remove goods that he believes belong to the debtor. The way to tackle this is by way of a claim to controlled goods, not to pay up and then claim payment was made under duress.

3. The debtor (and yourself) confirmed that he lives at your property from time to time. Furthermore, your address was most likely the address given for court correspondence in this matter. The bailiff had every right to reasonably believe that your son lived at the address, at least some of the time. Finally, your son or yourself had the opportunity to notify CES after receiving the NoE. Neither of you did so.

The one shining light is that the sale fee (and possibly the 2nd enforcement stage fee can be challenged. As mentioned, this must be done by your son.

An EAC2 complaint is worth considering. The bailiff clearly added at least one fee (sale fee) that should not have been included. It is also worrying that the goods controlled were from the main living area - Your area. There was no evidence that they belonged to your son and the time honored request to see receipts was pointless and no excuse to continue in the absence of the receipts alone. EAC2 complaints do not come without risk and should you fail, it is likely that the bailiff's legal team will ask for their costs and I can assure you that they are way more than £40 per hour.