PCN & NOE

[Alpha123]

Hi All,

Looking for some advice.

We had moved house a while ago. My wife received a call on 16-07-2019 from our previous estate agents informing her that Bailiff's visited our previous address & were looking to recover £423 for a PCN which wasn't paid + penalties.
My wife contacted the Bailiff's & informed that we had moved house so if all details could be sent to the new address. Moreover, she wrote to council to obtain further details of the original fine.

It seems she dropped our son close to school & it was apparently a bus stop (Not very well marked). Nonetheless, our plan was not to contest the initial fine, but to know how it turned into £423.
My wife got some advice over phone from Patrol UK etc. & she was told to fill in & submit TE7 & TE9 forms. She filled & submitted the forms as per advice she received & sent them to TEC. The forms were refused after a few days.

Now to cut the long story short, Bristow & Sutor are chasing us for £423/- while we still have no details of original fine provided to us.
I would like advice on the following:

1- The council is not providing any evidence or details of the original fine as they are saying it has passed that stage & I should get in touch with Bristow & Sutor to resolve this.
Who can provide us with the details & evidence of PCN?

2- The PCN was issued dated 07-02-2019 (Our address with DVLA was still old one) & the warrant was issued on 24-06-2019 & enforcement on 16-07-2019.
However, our address was updated with DVLA somewhere in May. Wasn't it for the council or enforcement agents to check of our new address when warrant & NOE were issued?
Is it not mistake on their part? Are we still liable to pay £75 compliance stage fee & £235 of enforcement stage fee?

3- My wife has now given up & setup a payment agreement, to pay £141 in three instalments. Frist instalment gets paid on 25-08-2019.
Do we have any options that can be considered at this point in time. Can we still pay the original amount due to council (£113) and argue with bailiff's to waive off other charges as our address was updated with DVLA by that time?

Or should we pay the whole amount as per set instalments & try to get a refund later.

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks & BR

[zeke]

They won't let you pay instalments, bailiff companies are more interested in getting as much money out of you as quickly as possible. Please do not go there.

Your TE9 and TE7 was probably refused because you didn't attach evidence of your new address when you emailed them to the TEC. Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 puts the burden of proof as to whether you were given the Notice to Owner (NTO).

If you did attach evidence of your new address with your TE9 and TE7 then you can appeal on a form N244 because the TEC adjudicator has made an error of fact.

You can challenge the bailiff fees because you were not given statutory notice of enforcement. That evidently went to your old address, so in this case, section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 works in your favour. You can challenge the bailiff's fees because they become disqualified under regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. All you need is evidence the warrant or council document was sent to your old address and you can apply for a detailed assessment hearing under CPR 84.16 at your local county court. The council usually always pays your costs because they continued with enforcement without giving a Notice of Enforcement in breach of paragraph 7.1 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

If you need evidence of the warrant of control having the wrong address, do the following.

1. get the PCN number.
2. Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre on 0300 123 1059. press 4 to skip the robot, and when you get a person, give the PCN number
3. In the security check, they will ask for your postcode. Give your PREVIOUS postcode.

One of two things will happen.

The security check passes, and that proves the address on the warrant is your previous address and you were not given the Notice to Owner and the Notice of Enforcement.

If the security check fails, and you then give your new postcode to pass the check, then ask for the DATE of the warrant. If that date pre-dates you moving to your new address, then you have proven the Traffic Enforcement Centre has modified the warrant retrospectively by changing it to your new address after it was issued with your old address. If that happens, then you must contact the Parliamentary Ombudsman with a recording of the call.

[John The Baptist]

You can appeal but you may just as well be better off taking the £75 on the chin, which is what I would do.

In your shoes, I would issue a formal complaint to the council. Information on how to do so will probably be found on the council's website. Failing that, just send in a letter titled "Formal Complaint Stage 1".

The grounds for your complaint are that B&S should have given you 7 clear days notice of their involvement (thus affording you the opportunity to settle or negotiate a repayment plan before the £235 fee was added). Notice should of been given at your usual address, NOT your previous address, pursuant to Regulation 8(1)(a) of The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013.

B&S had an opportunity to confirm your current address and failed to do so. Furthermore, once they discovered your correct address, they should have re-issued the NoE, and sent it to your current address (or alternatively, taken payment plus £75 and closed the account).

State that you will continue to pay the debt as per the agreement, minus the £235 fee that is in dispute. Ask that all enforcement be suspended until the complaint is resolved.

The purpose for issuing a NoE is to give a debtor an opportunity to address the debt without incurring further enforcement fees. It is worth noting that unlike council correspondence (which may be sent to a debtor's last known address/address on DVLA records), a NoE must be sent to a debtor's current address.

B&S will almost certainly be asked for an explanation and will almost certainly respond with some gobbledygook skewed interpretation of the legislation. The council will then almost certainly go with what B&S state. Do not let the complaint go - Keep going for as long as you can. Do not give up as that is what B&S rely on. If you exhaust the council's complaints procedure (in my experience, the fee is usually removed once it is clear that you will not back down), take your complaint to the ombudsman.

[Alpha123]

They won't let you pay instalments, bailiff companies are more interested in getting as much money out of you as quickly as possible. Please do not go there.

Your TE9 and TE7 was probably refused because you didn't attach evidence of your new address when you emailed them to the TEC. Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 puts the burden of proof as to whether you were given the Notice to Owner (NTO).

If you did attach evidence of your new address with your TE9 and TE7 then you can appeal on a form N244 because the TEC adjudicator has made an error of fact.

You can challenge the bailiff fees because you were not given statutory notice of enforcement. That evidently went to your old address, so in this case, section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 works in your favour. You can challenge the bailiff's fees because they become disqualified under regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. All you need is evidence the warrant or council document was sent to your old address and you can apply for a detailed assessment hearing under CPR 84.16 at your local county court. The council usually always pays your costs because they continued with enforcement without giving a Notice of Enforcement in breach of paragraph 7.1 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

If you need evidence of the warrant of control having the wrong address, do the following.

1. get the PCN number.
2. Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre on 0300 123 1059. press 4 to skip the robot, and when you get a person, give the PCN number
3. In the security check, they will ask for your postcode. Give your PREVIOUS postcode.

One of two things will happen.

The security check passes, and that proves the address on the warrant is your previous address and you were not given the Notice to Owner and the Notice of Enforcement.

If the security check fails, and you then give your new postcode to pass the check, then ask for the DATE of the warrant. If that date pre-dates you moving to your new address, then you have proven the Traffic Enforcement Centre has modified the warrant retrospectively by changing it to your new address after it was issued with your old address. If that happens, then you must contact the Parliamentary Ombudsman with a recording of the call.

Thanks a lot for your response & advice.

We did not post V5C with forms, so probably that was the reason for refusal.
They gave us option for appeal using N244 but we didn't opt for it as it was a further £100/- for appeal without hearing and we were not sure of our chances. Unfortunately, the 2 week time they gave us for N244 is past now.

My wife has confirmed that TEC has already updated our address so we can still try & call them as per your advice to gather evidence.
Are we ok to record their call without informing them & using it as evidence?

Our main concern at this point is to stop the Bailiff's from visiting our house as we have got 4 young kids (between ages 3-13) and we don't want them to witness any drama at our doorstep! That's why my wife has setup and arrangement online at B&S website to pay in 3 instalments, £141 each. I am not sure how easy would it be to get a refund once we have paid. Or probably we can pay 1st instalments on 25-08-2019 & cancel Standing order for subsequent payments while we take this up further.

Any others suggestions to stop the Bailiff's from visiting our property would be welcome.

P.S: Do local councillors have any authority to help in these matters, if we write to them ?

Thanks & BR

[Alpha123]

You can appeal but you may just as well be better off taking the £75 on the chin, which is what I would do.

In your shoes, I would issue a formal complaint to the council. Information on how to do so will probably be found on the council's website. Failing that, just send in a letter titled "Formal Complaint Stage 1".

The grounds for your complaint are that B&S should have given you 7 clear days notice of their involvement (thus affording you the opportunity to settle or negotiate a repayment plan before the £235 fee was added). Notice should of been given at your usual address, NOT your previous address, pursuant to Regulation 8(1)(a) of The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013.

B&S had an opportunity to confirm your current address and failed to do so. Furthermore, once they discovered your correct address, they should have re-issued the NoE, and sent it to your current address (or alternatively, taken payment plus £75 and closed the account).

State that you will continue to pay the debt as per the agreement, minus the £235 fee that is in dispute. Ask that all enforcement be suspended until the complaint is resolved.

The purpose for issuing a NoE is to give a debtor an opportunity to address the debt without incurring further enforcement fees. It is worth noting that unlike council correspondence (which may be sent to a debtor's last known address/address on DVLA records), a NoE must be sent to a debtor's current address.

B&S will almost certainly be asked for an explanation and will almost certainly respond with some gobbledygook skewed interpretation of the legislation. The council will then almost certainly go with what B&S state. Do not let the complaint go - Keep going for as long as you can. Do not give up as that is what B&S rely on. If you exhaust the council's complaints procedure (in my experience, the fee is usually removed once it is clear that you will not back down), take your complaint to the ombudsman.

Thanks a lot for your response & advice.

We will write to the council as per you have advised. B&S said that they had just sent all correspondence to the address provided by council which was old address as that was the address which was with DVLA at time of PCN issuance. But we argued that when they had issued warrant and NOE, at that time the address was already updated with DVLA so if they were not receiving any response from us, they should have checked the address again at DVLA. Our address with council for council tax bill was already updated (Even at time of PCN issuance), but I guess they only check with DVLA.

Again, our concern is to stop B&S from visiting our property for reasons I mentioned in response to other reply I received from Schedule 12 while we deal with the complaints etc. to get the additional penalties waived.

P.S: Do local councillors have any authority to help in these matters, if we write to them ?

Thanks & BR

[John The Baptist]

As I stated in my post above, when issuing your formal complaint, inform the council that you will continue honoring the agreement that you have entered into, minus the £235 that is in dispute. Ask that enforcement be suspended whilst the issue of the £235 is being considered. I've never known a council not to place enforcement on hold whilst a dispute is being considered.

There is no harm in contacting a local councillor but my own feeling is that a formal complaint is your stronger weapon. Perhaps await the outcome of your complaint before contacting the local councillor?