Hi
I recently did a post regarding Newlyn chasing me for council tax. I've never disputed that we didn't owe the debt which was paid to the council but I never knew who Newlyn were or that they were instructed to reclaim the debt. All I recieved was a hand delivered letter saying I owe them £310 in fees. I've never recieved a single letter or any notice of enforcement and I've asked Newlyn for an access request to these and they sent me a load of stuff apparently relating to my case of which I've never seen. I've always said to them if theres a compliance fee I'll pay it but I'm not paying this extra fee for something that I've never recieved. I've included the pdf they sent me if anyone knows what rights I have or what I can do as I firmly believe they haven't acted accordingly and sent these documents/letters out to me.
Newlyn council tax
-
cloudstrife_255
- Posts: 0
- Joined: 21 Jan 2013 12:37
Newlyn council tax
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Newlyn council tax
I’ve read your Newlyn letter or 22 July 2019.
The body of the letter is a computer-generated chronical of the history of the debt. One I have seen many times before. It neither answers the question you raised nor forthcoming with a positive resolution.
Your question is about sending a Notice of Enforcement. The law says the Notice is deemed to be given to the recipient if sent by ordinary post - unless evidence to the contrary is proved.
That means the court will accept that Newlyn has posted the Notice unless you prove otherwise. Example proof include: the address is wrong; you are working away; you have moved, or the debt has someone other irregularity.
DCBL (Direct Collection Bailiffs Limited), the court will accept they do not give a Notice of Enforcement. They worked with a TV production on bailiffs and artistic license is achieved by ambushing debtors on camera, so the court recognises they do not give notice of Enforcement. You can exhibit the judgment whenever challenging a DCBL claim that relies on the non-receipt of a Notice of Enforcement.
The current position on Newlyns £310 demand, is they know the enforcement power is extinguished and confirmed in their letter of 22 July. When the amount outstanding is paid the enforcement power ceases to be exercisable. Paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (TCEA).
You still owe the fees to Newlyn, provided they used with the Schedule 12 enforcement provisions. Regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.
The Schedule 12 enforcement provisions include provision 7.1 which says the enforcement agent must give notice to the debtor.
If you disagree a Notice was given as per Newlyns letter, then the only challenge is a detailed assessment hearing under CPR 84.16.
It is the practice of Newlyn’s solicitor to say that any claim against Newlyn is “wholly vexatious” and sometimes, accusing the plaintiff of “blackmail” without offering a settlement or giving a defence. The blackmail word was first used by Newlyns solicitor in 2010 and posted on an internet discussion forum. We just put their letters to one side, charge a fee, and proceed with the action.
When I prepare a detailed assessment, court rules don’t require the bailiff company to be told of the application. The court will list the application and give the bailiff company an opportunity to prove its case, and it's here they must show the enforcement agent kept a record of the time they gave the notice - provision 7.3 of Schedule 12.
If they cannot show the enforcement agent kept a record of the time they gave the notice, the bailiff company loses. The bailiff company usually has to pay the applicants costs. Some bailiff companies defend the application by giving a computer-generated copy of a notice of enforcement. While that used to work for defendant bailiffs, it now fails because the court held that computer software created the notice and is not engineered to give it to the debtor.
Regulations provide a choice of six methods a Notice of Enforcement is given to the debtor. Regulation 8(1) of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013. If the defendant bailiff company cannot show evidence which of the six prescribed methods was used by the enforcement agent, the defence fails.
If your claim is only to get out of the £310 fees, then it's best to do nothing, let Newlyn be the aggressor and send their trademark angry letters. If they get confrontational, make a video to give in evidence or post on YouTube. There is no power to force entry for unpaid council tax. Your council tax liability has ended, so the prospect of a lawful breaking entry is zero.
It is up to Newlyn to decide whether to get stroppy and risk a detailed assessment hearing, or take it on the chin and move on.
The body of the letter is a computer-generated chronical of the history of the debt. One I have seen many times before. It neither answers the question you raised nor forthcoming with a positive resolution.
Your question is about sending a Notice of Enforcement. The law says the Notice is deemed to be given to the recipient if sent by ordinary post - unless evidence to the contrary is proved.
That means the court will accept that Newlyn has posted the Notice unless you prove otherwise. Example proof include: the address is wrong; you are working away; you have moved, or the debt has someone other irregularity.
DCBL (Direct Collection Bailiffs Limited), the court will accept they do not give a Notice of Enforcement. They worked with a TV production on bailiffs and artistic license is achieved by ambushing debtors on camera, so the court recognises they do not give notice of Enforcement. You can exhibit the judgment whenever challenging a DCBL claim that relies on the non-receipt of a Notice of Enforcement.
The current position on Newlyns £310 demand, is they know the enforcement power is extinguished and confirmed in their letter of 22 July. When the amount outstanding is paid the enforcement power ceases to be exercisable. Paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (TCEA).
You still owe the fees to Newlyn, provided they used with the Schedule 12 enforcement provisions. Regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.
The Schedule 12 enforcement provisions include provision 7.1 which says the enforcement agent must give notice to the debtor.
If you disagree a Notice was given as per Newlyns letter, then the only challenge is a detailed assessment hearing under CPR 84.16.
It is the practice of Newlyn’s solicitor to say that any claim against Newlyn is “wholly vexatious” and sometimes, accusing the plaintiff of “blackmail” without offering a settlement or giving a defence. The blackmail word was first used by Newlyns solicitor in 2010 and posted on an internet discussion forum. We just put their letters to one side, charge a fee, and proceed with the action.
When I prepare a detailed assessment, court rules don’t require the bailiff company to be told of the application. The court will list the application and give the bailiff company an opportunity to prove its case, and it's here they must show the enforcement agent kept a record of the time they gave the notice - provision 7.3 of Schedule 12.
If they cannot show the enforcement agent kept a record of the time they gave the notice, the bailiff company loses. The bailiff company usually has to pay the applicants costs. Some bailiff companies defend the application by giving a computer-generated copy of a notice of enforcement. While that used to work for defendant bailiffs, it now fails because the court held that computer software created the notice and is not engineered to give it to the debtor.
Regulations provide a choice of six methods a Notice of Enforcement is given to the debtor. Regulation 8(1) of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013. If the defendant bailiff company cannot show evidence which of the six prescribed methods was used by the enforcement agent, the defence fails.
If your claim is only to get out of the £310 fees, then it's best to do nothing, let Newlyn be the aggressor and send their trademark angry letters. If they get confrontational, make a video to give in evidence or post on YouTube. There is no power to force entry for unpaid council tax. Your council tax liability has ended, so the prospect of a lawful breaking entry is zero.
It is up to Newlyn to decide whether to get stroppy and risk a detailed assessment hearing, or take it on the chin and move on.
-
cloudstrife_255
- Posts: 0
- Joined: 21 Jan 2013 12:37
Re: Newlyn council tax
Hi thanks for your reply. My only worry is that the Newlyn bailiff sent me a text message yesterday saying he will be at mine today to continue enforcement even though I sent an email to Newlyn stating that this was an unsatisfactory resolution and I've had no response from Newlyn. The biggest worry is my car and if the bailiff still any power to just try and seize my vehicle? I've also sent a rather large email to my local councillor as well of which they have responded and are talking with senior management within the counci tax department. I copied Newlyn in that too with no response from them.
Re: Newlyn council tax
If a bailiff sends a nuisance text message then you can report it to your mobile provider. Forward the message to 7726. All operators now use 7726, with the exception of Vodafone who use 87726.
Stop contacting Newlyn, they will mess you about.
Let the council sort it out. If a bailiff interferes with your car and you can show you have paid the amount outstanding, then you can bring a detailed assessment hearing. You can also apply for an order the bailiff returns control of your car.
From October 2019, I will be able to offer free solicitor referrals for detailed assessment hearings on a no-win no-fee basis.
Stop contacting Newlyn, they will mess you about.
Let the council sort it out. If a bailiff interferes with your car and you can show you have paid the amount outstanding, then you can bring a detailed assessment hearing. You can also apply for an order the bailiff returns control of your car.
From October 2019, I will be able to offer free solicitor referrals for detailed assessment hearings on a no-win no-fee basis.
-
cloudstrife_255
- Posts: 0
- Joined: 21 Jan 2013 12:37
Re: Newlyn council tax
Hi. I've attached the response I recieved, the council have basically washed their hands of it again and siding with Newlyn not taking into account anything I've said and just accepted Newlyns copied computer generated letters. So I'm back to square one I would like to go ahead with this direct assessment.
-
cloudstrife_255
- Posts: 0
- Joined: 21 Jan 2013 12:37
Re: Newlyn council tax
Sorry these are the attachments.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: Newlyn council tax
You don't need to take any further steps.
If the bailiff company takes or threatens you with an enforcement action, or becomes confrontational, you can apply for a detailed assessment.
If the bailiff company takes or threatens you with an enforcement action, or becomes confrontational, you can apply for a detailed assessment.
-
cloudstrife_255
- Posts: 0
- Joined: 21 Jan 2013 12:37
Re: Newlyn council tax
Hi sorry one last question just so I'm 100% clear. Can they touch my car for recovery of fees? Or is that only if I still owed on the council tax? Thanks.
Re: Newlyn council tax
Paragraph 31 of the Taking Control of Goods, National Standards, published by the Misistry of Justice in 2014 states:
31. Enforcement agents must not seek to enforce the recovery of fees where an
enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.
-
John The Baptist
- Posts: 284
- Joined: 06 Jun 2017 17:22
Re: Newlyn council tax
Nigel, for transparency, the OP should me made aware of the Bola v Newlyn case a couple of years back. Bola paid the debt to the council after Newlyn had become involved but did not pay their fees. Bola's car was removed and Bola took them (Newlyn & Harrow? council) to court. Bola lost his case and ended up with a substantial costs order.
Cloudstrife - I know this isn't what you want to hear but there is no easy way to circumvent bailiff fees. If there was, we'd all do what you have tried to do. A detailed assessment will also cost you money as well & your chances of succeeding are around 0.5% at best.
Your car is at risk. Your choice is to either risk hiding it for the next 11 months until enforcem,ent dies or taking it on the chin and paying the £310. There is no third option.
I would personally urge you to give up your fight and accept the consequences of failing to adhere to your arrangement.
Cloudstrife - I know this isn't what you want to hear but there is no easy way to circumvent bailiff fees. If there was, we'd all do what you have tried to do. A detailed assessment will also cost you money as well & your chances of succeeding are around 0.5% at best.
Your car is at risk. Your choice is to either risk hiding it for the next 11 months until enforcem,ent dies or taking it on the chin and paying the £310. There is no third option.
I would personally urge you to give up your fight and accept the consequences of failing to adhere to your arrangement.
Re: Newlyn council tax
In the Bola case, Newlyn had already taken control of a car by clamping it, and he removed it to a church carpark nearby where newlyn re-took the car.
The OP has not had any enforcement.
The OP has not had any enforcement.
-
John The Baptist
- Posts: 284
- Joined: 06 Jun 2017 17:22
Re: Newlyn council tax
In the Bola case, he paid the debt, minus the bailiff fees. Newlyn still clamped/removed the car. In court, the judge held that Newlyn were legally entitled to do so.
The OP asked if Newlyn can still touch his car for the recovery of fees. I think he should be aware of the Bola case, especially as it's the same bailiff company and they're likely to follow the same path.
The OP asked if Newlyn can still touch his car for the recovery of fees. I think he should be aware of the Bola case, especially as it's the same bailiff company and they're likely to follow the same path.
Re: Newlyn council tax
The Bola case was not a detailed assessment hearing.
Detailed assessment hearings on the identical set of facts but for the execution of High Court writs have rebuked the theory that bailiffs can take control of goods to recover fees. When the enforcement power has ended following payment of the Paragraph 50(3) sum and the application of a Paragraph 59 notice, the fees are not recoverable by taking control of goods.
There are never any costs against a claimant in a detailed assessment hearing under CPR 85.16. The bailiff company doesn't need to be told of the application, therefore is not present at the hearing and doesn't have any costs.
The application can only be brought if the claimant provides evidence an enforcement agent has taken or threatens an enforcement step after knowing the enforcement power has ended.
Detailed assessment hearings on the identical set of facts but for the execution of High Court writs have rebuked the theory that bailiffs can take control of goods to recover fees. When the enforcement power has ended following payment of the Paragraph 50(3) sum and the application of a Paragraph 59 notice, the fees are not recoverable by taking control of goods.
There are never any costs against a claimant in a detailed assessment hearing under CPR 85.16. The bailiff company doesn't need to be told of the application, therefore is not present at the hearing and doesn't have any costs.
The application can only be brought if the claimant provides evidence an enforcement agent has taken or threatens an enforcement step after knowing the enforcement power has ended.
-
John The Baptist
- Posts: 284
- Joined: 06 Jun 2017 17:22
Re: Newlyn council tax
There is a cost involved to apply for a DA. I'm assuming that you would also happily help with the application if your palms are crossed with silver.
In the unlikely event that the application is not then filed in the paper shredder, the court;s management power enables it to require one or both parties to attend court. All this for £310.
We've been over this ground many times. You won't convince and I won't convince you. The OP now has 2 different opinions to consider
In the unlikely event that the application is not then filed in the paper shredder, the court;s management power enables it to require one or both parties to attend court. All this for £310.
We've been over this ground many times. You won't convince and I won't convince you. The OP now has 2 different opinions to consider
Re: Newlyn council tax
I've seen detailed assessments succeed in disputing a lot less than £310. There is no minimum and the costs don't need to be proportionate.
Re: Newlyn council tax
What happens when a bailiff actually caused physical harm to two occupants of a property, stood at the door in full view of the neighbours and screamed at the top of his lungs causing extreme embarrassment ?
Re: Newlyn council tax
The physical harm aspect of the case is redressed by making a claim for Personal Injury.
The embarrassment aspect of the claim is made in two parts. A complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman and they can make an award against the council, or make only a recommendation.
If a bailiff got shouty, then its a breach of the peace under and should be reported to the police. It's helpful if anyone captured it using their mobile. The best way to report this is online via the local police force website.
The police don't always know the law on breach of the peace, but when an action is brought, their memory makes a miraculous recovery. R vs Howell 1981. The legal profession sometimes exploits this to rack up a bill against police. This tactic is often deployed when bringing an action against police for false arrest or unlawful imprisonment.
The embarrassment aspect of the claim is made in two parts. A complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman and they can make an award against the council, or make only a recommendation.
If a bailiff got shouty, then its a breach of the peace under and should be reported to the police. It's helpful if anyone captured it using their mobile. The best way to report this is online via the local police force website.
The police don't always know the law on breach of the peace, but when an action is brought, their memory makes a miraculous recovery. R vs Howell 1981. The legal profession sometimes exploits this to rack up a bill against police. This tactic is often deployed when bringing an action against police for false arrest or unlawful imprisonment.