Marstons, Southern Water Help...

[Wilsonwinehouse]

Afternoon everyone,

Could I ask for some advice please.

About 5 days ago i received an email from a company called Marston Group, this email was sent to an old email address of mine and then forwarded to a new email, so i managed to get it, in the email is a letter from marstons saying that they are working on behalf of Southern Water and i owe nearly £2800, which includes fees and costs to them.

The address on the letter is an old address of mine, one i have not lived at for over 3 years now. I have no idea about the debt, so i do not know what the debt originally was and what the costs are, I can imagine that the debt would be less than £1000 and the costs just plain ridiculous.

So my question is, what do i do now, what would you do? Do i contact either of the companies about it or just leave it and wait until Marstons come to my new address? So currently, nobody has written to me or knocked on my new address, which i have lived for nearly 3 years.

Also, lets say they come to the new address in a months time, surely all of those costs can not be added if they have been writing to and knocking on the door of a property i have not lived at for over 3 years, it seems absolutely ridiculous. I would have no issue setting up a plan with Southern Water to repay it if i owe it but i refuse to pay those costs for something i know nothing about, if they had written to me at my new address in the first place, this would never have happened.

Any advice welcome

[zeke]

As always, the bailiff company has gone completely nuts with their fees and the creditor will not enter into a repayment agreement. The creditor is contractually bound with the bailiff company to pass the money to the bailiff company so they can take their fees.

The best way to deal with this is to make an application to the High Court for a stay of execution and a detailed assessment of costs.

The result is the enforcement power is suspended and when the fees are found to be irregular, you claim costs under CPR 46.5 which writes off the original debt because its is always set off the judgment, which ends the enforcement power permanently.

The net result is you owe absolutely nothing and its cost you absolutely nothing because the creditor pays the costs, and it up to them whether to recover them from the bailiff or their insurer.

If you want to start work, then contact me and we can start the show.

[Wilsonwinehouse]

Thanks for your advice..

That all sounds good, does it cost anything to have the stay of execution and detailed costs? As of now I have no idea what the original debt was but I imagine the costs are ridiculous on top.

How do I contact you and start the ball rolling?

Thanks

[zeke]

The net cost to you is zero because the creditor pays them.

When someone brings a detailed assessment of costs of the enforcement agent and the master finds they are wrong, the creditor always pays and it's up to them whether to recover them from the bailiff's indemnity insurance. That is not your problem.

The route I recommend in your case is to apply for a stay of execution and a detailed assessment. Court staff always take a long time to list the detailed assessment hearing, and all enforcement is on hold until then. Once the assessment is made, your costs are then used as set-off against the remainder of the judgment debt, and in many cases the creditor could end up owing you money. If that is the case, you apply for a “reverse writ” against the creditor.

If you want to speak to me, I am on 07988 226048. I am in Hong Kong at the moment so we are GMT+7 but I can get you a solicitor into the High Court in London in under 24 hours if needed.

[Wilsonwinehouse]

Thanks very much for your help..

How do i go about starting the process of the stay of execution and detailed assessment, do i need to send off a form or something?

I have got another email this morning from Marstons, same as last time, it just says i owe £2800 including costs, no mention of a breakdown of what the original debt was and sent to an old email address, i wouldn't have thought it would be too hard to find my new address, ive lived here 2 years and its like 20 miles away from my old one, its like they're chancing their arm.

[Syd Snitkin]

I think you need to establish what fees have been added before a detailed assessment is sought otherwise you're risking costs awarded against you. You can't just assume what fees have been added.

You have said you don't even know the amount owed to Southern Water. It would just be simpler to phone or email them to establish what's what - you don't need to give your current address, however as you haven't moved far are you still a SW customer?

Certainly a stay of execution is in order - this will remove bailiff fees and allow you to repay anything owed to SW at an affordable rate.

[zeke]

There are no costs against a detailed assessment applicant. The bailiff company doesn't need to told of the application, therefore does not attend. This happens on DWB all the time and DCBL were copping it daily until they lost Claire Sandbrook and became common debt collectors. Law firms can create a detailed assessment pack online: https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/Te ... sment.html

The OP said the debt is imagined to be less than £1000 and with the fees its £2800, that is enough for me to look at the writ and the bailiffs demand to see whether there is a fee irregularity. If there is, then I can draw a detailed assessment and put it before a master.

[Wilsonwinehouse]

I am assuming that as I lived at that address for about 2 years, unless I used an awful lot of water but would it be worth calling Marstons and giving them the reference number and just asking what the original debt was and how much they have added in fees?

At least then I’d know what was what, obviously I wouldn’t give my new address to them, just see what the costs are.

[zeke]

Call them up and ask for:

1. A copy of the writ.
2. A statement of account

Then collate all payments you have made towards the judgment debt, whether paid to the creditor or the bailiff company.

Then call me and I'll show you what you can do about it.

[Wilsonwinehouse]

I havent made any payments towards the debt as i only found out about it 5 days ago by a random email.

I dont really want to give them my new address, id like to try and get it sorted without them turning up at my door.

If i call them, can I just ask them over the phone to tell me what the original debt was and the costs they've added, at least that way i will know and can probably do the stay of execution.

[Syd Snitkin]

There are no costs against a detailed assessment applicant.

Of course there is - if the judge feels the costs are reasonable or decides to reduce them only slightly, or if he feels the application is frivilous, he absolutely can award costs against the OP, both court costs and party costs. At the moment you're advising the OP to apply for a detailed assessment of the costs without even knowing what costs have been applied. That's reckless to say the least.

The OP said the debt is imagined to be less than £1000 and with the fees its £2800, that is enough for me to look at the writ and the bailiffs demand to see whether there is a fee irregularity. If there is, then I can draw a detailed assessment and put it before a master.

The OP said he had no true idea of the debt amount. Until it's established what it is, asking for a £35 consultation fee is a bit off.

[Syd Snitkin]

I am assuming that as I lived at that address for about 2 years, unless I used an awful lot of water but would it be worth calling Marstons and giving them the reference number and just asking what the original debt was and how much they have added in fees?

At least then I’d know what was what, obviously I wouldn’t give my new address to them, just see what the costs are.

Did you pay any water bills in the 2 years? Was it metered? Do you recall getting any bills? Are you still a customer of SW at your new address?

[delta157]

Are you on benefits or have a few children? Or on a low income then you might have a lifeline.

I've recently dealt with a similar situation and had the water company recalled the debt back in house.

An arrangement plan set up and affordable as well. It was a low 4 figure debt over several years too.

If you are on a low income and or certain benefits you can apply to have an arrangement to pay and after 2 years you can then apply to have the debt written off.

Look at watersure in any search engine for more details. Each water company operates a scheme with a similar name.

Nothing to loose except lots of fees coming off of your bill!

You will need to complete a I&E or better still use a debt remedy form from one of the debt charities which is free go use.

Up to you though.

Taking creditors and or Bailiffs to Court can cost you much more in costs, check out every option open to you before losing loads of money!

[Syd Snitkin]

Thanks Delta. Here's the link> https://www.southernwater.co.uk/watersure-tariff

[zeke]

There are no costs against a detailed assessment applicant.

Of course there is - if the judge feels the costs are reasonable or decides to reduce them only slightly, or if he feels the application is frivilous, he absolutely can award costs against the OP, both court costs and party costs. At the moment you're advising the OP to apply for a detailed assessment of the costs without even knowing what costs have been applied. That's reckless to say the least.,

I only bring a DA when there are grounds.

I have never had a costs made against a detailed assessment applicant. The bailiff company is not even there, and doesn't even know until the order is made and then its served telling them how much they owe. The bailiff company can't appeal because CPR84.16 does not provide for one. The master would only make an assessment when he sees the writ and evidence of the bailiffs demand, or the flow of money the bailiff has taken. Without the evidence a DA cannot be brought.

The OP said he had no true idea of the debt amount. Until it's established what it is, asking for a £35 consultation fee is a bit off.

Nobody asked £35 for a consultation.

[zeke]

Nothing to loose except lots of fees coming off of your bill!

It won't happen.

The water company is in a contract with the bailiff company that obligates the company to pay the bailiff company its fees when it accepts a repayment plan with the debtor, or takes money from the debtor.

It is the same with PPI reclaim companies when a bank pays the PPI refund to a claimant going round the PPI claims company. The PPI claims company sues the client for their fees, usually 50% of the sum recovered and I end up with the client when the claim is transferred to a high court writ and bailiffs added thousands more in fees. I always do stay and a detailed assessment. That stops the enforcement power temporarily and awards costs for the client under CPR 46.5 who then uses that as set-off against the original judgment - usually nullifying it which ends the enforcement power permanently. The net cost to the client is zero and the bailiffs are off his back. £35 quid well spent. The alternative is a Solicitor £3500, and if the client doesn't have it, then he is is buggered. A debt charity cannot get a creditor to circumvent a creditor/bailiff contract.

[Syd Snitkin]

I only bring a DA when there are grounds.

And without knowing how much the original debt is and what fees have been applied then why even consider an application? CivPR 84.16 also says evidence of the disputed fees must be shown.

Nobody asked £35 for a consultation.

Your quote from post #2:

If you want to start work, then contact me and we can start the show.

That's a free call then?

[zeke]

Yes.

[zeke]

And without knowing how much the original debt is and what fees have been applied then why even consider an application? CivPR 84.16 also says evidence of the disputed fees must be shown.

We always exibit the evidence. The software that creates the bundle to be laid before the court requires them. https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/Te ... sment.html

The client pays nothing, usually not even the court fee if we do an online fee remission claim. The solicitor and draughtboard are paid out of the costs which are collected from the party that instructed the bailiff company. If someone approaches a solicitor, they will want money upfront and they don't have access to a detailed assessment draughtboard. That is how I can offer it for free and the client never needs to attend court.

[Syd Snitkin]

Nigel, you're missing the point. You've advised the OP to apply for a DA without even establishing what fees have been added.

Nice to know your consultation calls are now free. Might be worth advertising that.

[zeke]

I don't need to advertise. I have enough work already.

The OP gave enough information to tell me there is sufficient information to see whether a DA was possible. I calculate the fees from the judgment debt and subtract it from the demand or the money taken. If that gives a negative value then I ask for a copy of the writ and the evidence of the money demanded or taken and establish the surrounding facts according to a checklist to see whether this is a DA candidate. Ive never seen a bailiff company at a DA hearing. I produce the bundle, pass it to a solicitor who goes before a master and the job is done in 10 minutes.

DA's are not frequently discussed on the forums, that doesn't mean to say they don't happen.

[Syd Snitkin]

The OP has given nothing to work with:

As of now I have no idea what the original debt was but I imagine the costs are ridiculous on top.

So all telephone consultations are now free?

[Syd Snitkin]

Oh and DAs can be appealed you know.

[zeke]

On DWB they are £35.

Have you seen a DA being appealed.

[Syd Snitkin]

On DWB they are £35.

I see, just this OP's is a freebie?

Have you seen a DA being appealed.

Certainly read about them. Not seen one in person but then again I'm not a solicitor. You're claiming they cannot be appealed - why would you think a decision in court cannot be appealed? There's even an official form for doing so.

[zeke]

What is the official form for appealing a DA?

Ive always done DA's on an N244 and requires evidence of the writ and the money taken or demanded together with the a statement of case.

I am paid the same whether the N244 and bundle are hand-drafted, or programmatically rendered.

Of all the DA's I have done, I have never seen one appealed and I don't know of an official form for a DA appeal.

I offer free consultations, but not on DWB because I am not set up to take on that amount of work, and free consultations creates a lower quality of client. DWB enables low value clients to solve their bailiff problem without a consultation.

[Syd Snitkin]

Form N259, CivPR 47.21 onwards

[zeke]

That is to appeal a detailed assessment on solicitors costs.

When I say DA, I mean a detailed assessment under CPR 84.16 to examine the costs and charges of an enforcement agent.

[Syd Snitkin]

Part VIII of CivPR doesn't differentiate between the nature of the DA, it just says 'a' DA.

You're seriously saying that a DA for bailiff fees can take place without a party being present, and that party cannot appeal the decision when they discover it? That must be the only court ruling that's exempt from appeal then.

[delta157]

From exact information I've provided I took an exact same debt, it was already out at enforcement x4.

Not only did it go back in house I did use the income and expense form and debt remedy from step change.

The fees were removed and the repayment plan agreed at £xx-x0pw for 6 months a new I&E requested but payments increased to £xxpw.

If a debtor as in my case was vulnerable the your argument fails!

At the end of the day I have nothing to gain by providing wrong advice, still your way could see this poster lose a significant amount of money if its pursued any other way.

The EA in the case I'm referring to was Marstons, another debtor helped and without fees, nor controlled goods agreement entered into.

Secondly my successes are true and correct. I have never charged for any information I've provided, but seeing a debtor get in to more debt unnecessarily is not fair.

If you had read my reply properly you'd of come to a different conclusion, but hey nothing new here is there?

Fact, a debtor can approach a creditor and enter in to a plan even if there's an EA involved! If the creditor agrees the EA is out of the picture.

Read up and find out how. Even with criminal cases its possible!

Secondly, in certain circumstances even with a 4 figure debt, with a water company you can get them to pay a contribution to clear the debt!

Certain conditions apply to be able to get this!

Again go read and find out!

Finally stop telling people they are wrong unless you know 100% they are wrong, I'm not btw.

Hint, a lot of answers are in the Southwark case and others, like Thames water and so on.

Observations only, you don't bring any action, you may recommend an action, you allegedly do, but don't do you? You hand off your work but how often? Not very I think?

[zeke]

Back on topic, the OP has two options to end the enforcement power.

Go DIY and see if a charity can negotiate wit the bailiff to stop the enforcement, or contact me for a free consultation where I can show the OP how to stop the power with an application to stay the execution and apply to either vary the judgment for a change of circumstances, and I can look at the bailiffs documents to see whether this is a candidate for a detailed assessment.

[Wilsonwinehouse]

Thanks for all the opinions guys..

Now i'm just really confused lol, im not on a low income, i work, live alone etc but do not earn a fortune and do not get any benefits.

When i lived at that address, it was an apartment and i paid for water and heating to a company that ran the plant room but i thought it covered everything, i was probably wrong and should have paid southern water too, i never once got a bill, i lived there 2 years so cannot imagine running up nearly £3k for water on my own. I have no idea what the original debt was and what they have added, i think i may just call Marstons, give them the reference number and ask what the original debt was and what they have added, just so that i know.

Would people think thats a good idea?

At least if i know how much i owed in the first place and what they have added, i can then ask for the writ at my new address, then go down the correct route

[Syd Snitkin]

If you can, dig out the tenancy agreement for your old address to see who was liable for utilities. Obviously SW have got your name from somewhere. You say you paid a company for water and heating, I assume that's for hot water, ie via a combi boiler or tank?

Personally, I would ring SW to ascertain what the debt is, what letters they sent and what address they had for you.

What time of apartment was it? Was it a conversion flat or purpose built apartments? Was it a new build?

[Wilsonwinehouse]

It was a brand new build, purpose built block, only 2 years old at the time, so every apartment had a boiler ran from a main plant room, so i was paying them for heating and hot water, stupidly it didn't even cross my mind to pay southern water.

As i say, i lived there about 2 years and never once had a letter from them to say, why havent you paid us.. obviously if i had one, id have paid or setup a payment plan, but it seems like they have been writing to that address and thats where Marstons have been going, but ive not lived there for almost 3 years now.

So you think a call to SW would help, they could tell me then debt amount as it originally was, before passing it to Marstons.

[zeke]

If you havent already done so, DO NOT give anyone your new address.

Get a copy of the original judgment, https://www.trustonline.org.uk/ then see what amount of that you dispute, and if the judgment address is a previous address on the date of the judgment, then you can do a Part 27 application to stay and defend part of the judgment. I'll explain Part 27 if needed.

As the claim was transferred up to High Court, you can do all that under High Court Jurisdiction and recover costs as a litigant in person under CPR 46.5, something you wouldn't ordinarily do if the claim remained in the small claims track.

The costs are then set off the original judgment reducing it even further. If you want, if your case qualifies for it, a detailed assessment will bump up your CPR 46.5 costs further and that would well write off the remainder of the judgment. In many cases I have seen, it usually does, and any balance owed is recovered using a reverse writ or a third party order on the judgment claimants bank.