Bus Lane Penalty Charge

[sunnytoday]

Hi,

I'm hoping someone can advise me please.

Last month, I received a Notice of enforcement from Jacobs.
It was for a bus lane fine from Jan 2018. I had not been aware of the fine nor sent it in the post.

I called the council straight away and was asked to fill out forms PE2 & PE3, get them witnessed and returned, which I did the next day.

Yesterday I received a letter saying the appeal had been rejected.
I am absolutely devastated, the original fine was £30, the bailiffs are asking for £408.
I called the council and this has already been transferred back to bailiffs.
I called Citizens Advice and they're calling be back on Monday.

I want to pay the original fine and not the bailiff's fees, is there any way to do that?
I'm a single parent and last Friday I was let go of from my job due to restructuring, this couldn't have come at a worse time.

Any advice?

Thanks

[Syd Snitkin]

After the notice of rejection, you should get 28 days to pay the original pcn or appeal to the adjudicator. What does the rejection letter say in full?

[sunnytoday]

It says:

'If you wish to apply for a review of this decision, you should complete an Application Notice form N244. It should be filed within 14 days of the date of service of the Court Officer's Order (I presume that's this letter). For the review, the fee is £255 at the nearest County Court Hearing Centre or £100 for a review by a District Judge. This may incur further costs, you should seek legal advice before proceeding'.

Really lost as to what to do.

[Syd Snitkin]

What reasons did you give on the appeal. Can you post exactly what you put?

You can make the N244 application - as you are unemployed you can complete for EX160 to get exemption from the court fees but you must be clear as to your reasons.

[sunnytoday]

The reasons on the appeal were:
1. I did not receive the fine as I'd moved house
2. I did not receive the subsequent letters for the same reason.
3. I am late because I have only just found out about this from the bailiffs.

That's the real reason why, I guess they didn't find that valid enough.

If I get employment before the hearing, will I then be liable to court fees and any other possible charges?
Is there a way to pay the council directly still? If I sent them a cheque by recorded post maybe?

[Syd Snitkin]

The reasons are not precise enough. You need to state the date you moved from your previous address and attach proof of your current address with a date.

Reason 3 needs to be worded as;

• The warrant of control has my previous address [GIVE PREVIOUS ADDRESS] and on [DATE] an enforcement agent took an enforcement step without the authority requesting the issue of a new warrant specifying the new address of the respondent under CPR 75.7(7).

Regarding employment, just get the N244 in ASAP. In any case, as a single parent you should still see a remission of the court fee even if you were working (unless it's some kind of extra high pay).

[sunnytoday]

Thank you! I will submit that with the new wording of point 3.
Should I go into more detail on points 1 & 2 as well?
I really appreciate your help.

[Syd Snitkin]

I want to check, how many letters from Jacobs have you had to your current address and what did they say?

[sunnytoday]

One - this one only, Notice of enforcement.
They're saying the original fine was £98, total £408.
They haven't been to this address nor got in touch with me in any other way before or since.

[sunnytoday]

Also gives me the warrant of control dated as 10/09/2018

[Syd Snitkin]

Jacobs have been very naughty here. Here's what's happened - they've issued a NOE to your old address and applied the £75 fee for this stage; after no response they've visited your old address and applied the £235 fee for this stage.

On learning of your new address they should have issued a new NOE to your current address but removed the £235 fee as they haven't visited you at your current address.

The previous advice still stands, your grounds for appeal for the N244 are:

1 - you did not receive the enforcement notice for the original contravention as it went to your previous address.

2 - The warrant of control has your previous address and an enforcement agent took an enforcement step without the authority requesting the issue of a new warrant specifying the new address of the respondent under CPR 75.7(7).

3 - You were not given the NOE from the enforcement agent under the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 s.8(1) as this was sent to your previous address.

[sunnytoday]

Thank you!
You have no idea how much this means to me, I've been at my wits' end with this.

Should I apply for the County Court Hearing Centre or District Judge? I guess the cheaper one just in case

[Syd Snitkin]

That's up to you depending on whether to want to speak to a judge face-to-face or not. The cheaper option should suffice IMO.

[sunnytoday]

Thanks again, I really appreciate your advice.

[Syd Snitkin]

I couldn't help but notice that you're being given the runaround on another forum. Just so you are aware, the member 'Bailiff Advice' will argue the absolute opposite to any advice this forum offers even if that means a debtor suffers.

She works closely with bailiff companies, sharing sensitive info with their solicitors. If you were to approach her privately regarding this matter she would charge you £45 for a copy and paste document.

She watches this forum constantly and helps run a blog trying to disprove every success we have. She will no doubt now roll out a couple of examples where she claims we have cost debtors 'thousands', always neglecting to add that after seeking our advice, these people decided to do things their own way.

Of course it's your choice how you want to play it, but please beware.

[sunnytoday]

I am proceeding with the application of N244 and I believe I will successful.
I am very grateful for your advice and optimism on here.

[Amy]

She will private message you there, she won’t do that here because she is not allowed here. If anyone does contact you, please do let me know.

[Syd Snitkin]

She keeps asking what evidence you have that the bailiff didn't apply for a new warrant. She doesn't understand that no one has said that.

It's the authority that needs to reapply for a new warrant. The fact that they've effectively used Jacobs as a tracing agent is evidence that their correspondence and warrant has the wrong address. CPR 75 says the authority may request a new warrant if the respondent has moved. They haven't done so.

[zeke]

Unless you qualify for free court fees, I recommend not appealing the rejection. It's expensive and you cannot add previously undisclosed evidence.

The TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre) rejected your PE2 because it followed section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 which says a document sent by post is served on the recipient unless evidence to the contrary is proved.

If you had attached evidence of your new address with your PE2 form, then the TEC would have revoked the enforcement and you could have paid the original PCN if the council chooses to pursue it.

If you paid a fixer over the internet to do your N244 then you have been royally swindled. She is a well-known con artist lurking on the Consumer Forums and lacks the intelligence to understand how parking appeals works and the legislation it follows. She has a criminal record and is only interested in pocketing your money. Her Modus operandi is having an accomplice send you a private message recommending her services. The accomplice is usually ploddertom or dodgeball who are both in on the scam.

If you are in a class of vulnerable people, then we might be able to get you off the bailiffs fees and, in some cases, write off the original PCN.

If you qualify for court fee remission, apply here then do an N244 and attach lots of evidence of your new address. Lets hope the TEC will run with it.

[sunnytoday]

I'm a single parent that's recently been made redundant - does that make me a vulnerable person?
How would I proceed with that action?
Thanks

[zeke]

Apply for court fee remission here: https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees

If you get fee remission, gather lots of evidence showing the date you moved to your current address and attach it to a completed form N244.

Completing a form N244 goes something like this:

Name of Court = County Court Traffic Enforcement Centre
Claim no: = The PCN number
Help with fees ref No = Your ref no you got from the link i have given above.
Claimants name: = Name of council or TFL etc.
Defendants name = Your name
Date = today

Part 1. Your name

Part 2. Are you a * OTHER (please specify) and enter "Appellant"

Part 3 What are you asking for and why.

Enter

Appeal the refusal of a statutory declaration because I have changed address and attach evidence proving that I was not given the notice to owner (NTO).


Part 4. Have you attached a draft order, Enter No.

Part 5. How do you want this application dealt with? enter "without a hearing"

Part 6. How long will the hearing last. Enter 0.hrs :5 mins

Part 7. Leave blank

Part 8. Enter "Judge"

Part 9. Enter n/a without notice in both fields.

Part 10. Tick "The evidence in the box below"
and enter in the box , Evidence of new address proving the applicant had not received the Notice to Owner

Enter your name

Name of applicant's legal representative's firm = leave blank


Position or office held (if signing on behalf of a firm or company) =- Leave Blank

Applicant's address * Your address and postcode


1. Enter your mobile number, and email address.

Sign and date, attach evidence, then send it to the TEC, 5th Floor, St Katharine's House, Northampton NN1 2LH.


Just to give a heads-up, the TEC might refuse your application on the grounds the evidence of your new address was not attached to your PE2.

To be technical, the bailiff company cannot pursue you for the fees because they must use the Schedule 12 enforcement procedures that require you to be given notice. That was posted to your old address and section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 counts that to be "evidence to the contrary" the notice was given. The law disqualifying the fees is regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.

If the TEC rejects your N244 then pay the council the PCN and that kills off the enforcement power - provided, the bailiff has not already taken control of your vehicle. Once paid, you must give the bailiff company a notice the "amount outstanding" has been paid. Here is a free template.

If a bailiff has already taken into control of your vehicle, identify the date of the warrant of control (Phone the TEC 0300 123 1059 with your PCN number). If it post-dates your move then you can apply for an injunction to recover your vehicle for breach of paragraph 7,1 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

[sunnytoday]

Thank you for the advice.

I have applied for help with fees. Do I wait to hear back from them before I fill out N244, just in case?

Why can't I pay the original fine to the Council now and inform the bailiffs, rather than going through the N244 process?

My car was written off 3 weeks after I found out about this - someone drove into me. If I get a new car with the payout, will bailiffs still be able to take control of it, should anything happen?

[zeke]

Thank you for the advice.

I have applied for help with fees. Do I wait to hear back from them before I fill out N244, just in case?

File the N244 and let them say whether you get fee remission.

Why can't I pay the original fine to the Council now and inform the bailiffs, rather than going through the N244 process?

You can.

Beware of internet trolls. There are individuals from bailiff companies that disagree with the law and promote a belief that Paragraph 59 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 does not apply to bailiffs.

In your case, the bailiffs fees do not apply because the bailiff company must use the Schedule 12 enforcement provisions which includes giving the debtor a notice, but as that wasn't done because they sent it to your old address, then cheated the rules by turning up at you new address in ambush in a hope you are less informed of the law.

If you pay the council and they refuse to bank the payment, then the money goes in your pocket.

My car was written off 3 weeks after I found out about this - someone drove into me. If I get a new car with the payout, will bailiffs still be able to take control of it, should anything happen?

They might try, but it will probably cost them more in damages then any gain that would stand to make. You are safe from a drive-by clamping because your old car is on a database of unpaid parking tickets, and an ANPR van will never find it.

If you still have your old accident car, then you can leave it out for the bailiffs to find and let them take it, then complete the V5 as "given as scrap".

[sunnytoday]

That's really helpful.

I called the council and they wouldn't accept my payment. How do I issue one and do I do it for the smaller £30 amount that would have been due if I received the fine in good time?

[zeke]

If you are paying the PCN and they refuse it, they have thrown away public money.

Make sure your home is secure, and park the matter.

[sunnytoday]

If you are paying the PCN and they refuse it, they have thrown away public money.

Make sure your home is secure, and park the matter.

Do you mean to say, I should just leave this?

[Syd Snitkin]

The matter isn't just going to go away. Fill in the N244. Fill in the EX160 online and you'll get a reference number to include on the N244. Put all the evidence on the N244, don't worry about whether you're adding new evidence or not - the original evidence will let the judge see that you told the council you'd moved address and he should see that the council shouldn't be so bloody minded and should be understanding that it means you never received notification.

Complain to the council that their appointed bailiff is trying to charge you for the enforcement stage without giving you a notice of enforcement as is required under legislation.

[sunnytoday]

Spoke to CA earlier today.
They told me what I already knew about form N244 and getting help with the fees. They didn't encourage me to proceed though, because they were concerned about me disclosing that I didn't update my address with DVLA which carries a fine in itself.

They did tell me that the bailiff's fees will not go over £408 as that's the most they can charge me. As my car has been written off, their advice has been to wait until it gets passed back onto the council.

Loads of conflicting advice.
If the fees will not go up, I am inclined to do the right thing by sending the council a cheque which they have an opportunity to accept, then informing the bailiffs it's been paid direct to the creditor and leaving it there.

[Syd Snitkin]

Although not updating your address on a V5C with DVLA can carry a fine I don't believe they have ever imposed one on anyone - it's not worth their time. The fact that you updated your driver's licence is evidence that you weren't trying to deceive.

[John The Baptist]

Sunny

You appear to have inadvertently got yourself involved in a squabble between internet posters. I am pretty neutral so please allow me my twopence worth:

Bailiff Advice has a very poor understanding of bailiff law and also works very closely with bailiff companies and their lawyers. However, she is quite conversant with parking appeals and the various forms required to use in appeals. Be wary of any advice she gives regarding bailiffs as it usually ends up with the debtor paying in full.

Dodgeball is a semi literate oxygen theif. A sick man who is virtually housebound with nothing to do other than troll the internet all day long. He has no experience in bailiff matters and is best being completely ignored.

Schedule 12 is very anti-bailiff and struggles to see the overall true situation in any bailiff matter, instead trying to find fault with bailiffs when none exist.

Syd Snitken is the person who I would recommend you glean advice from.

Contrary to the claims of Dodgeball, it was possible to pay creditors directly in the early days and there were success stories posted on this very forum confirming such. However, it was never parliment’s intention for this facility and nowadays, paying the creditor directly will not stop bailiffs. Reference to paragraph 59 is nonsense. Schedule 12 is the only person who claims this is a sensible course of action to take and offers no proof of it ever working. Paying the original fine directly is not an option for you. It will not stop enforcement. The courts have determined that if a debtor pays the original debt, a bailiff may still continue enforcement to recover his fees.

Your application has not yet succeeded so you cannot move matters back to a previous stage just because it’s cheaper to do so.