I've never used a forum before so please bear with me.
Life got shitty, I had loads of debts, I buried my head then ran away. The problem is this.....
I had a phonecall from a bailiff saying he was at my property (a cpl of days after I'd actually moved abroad). He demanded full payment of old council tax bill plus fees. I explained I have no income. (I'm basically living off my boyfriend). He said he would get an arrest warrant. I've been sick with worry. I had payment for a final job I'd done before leaving so I rang and paid them over £200. I don't like speaking to them as there's no record so i insist on emails. I said I'd try to pay £50 a month. They are still pushing ahead to 'collect goods' from my old address. They sent a letter to my parents address, parents are furious, I emailed saying nothing not to harass my parents and repeated that I no longer live at old address.
What should I do? Ring them and pay once a month? Theres no way of paying online and I don't know how long I will have my UK phone. Will I be arrested? I feel sick with worry but to date have tried to communicate and co operate and offer payment, I don't know what else to do.
You've moved abroad - nothing he can do. Bailiff's cannot request arrest warrants. Practically everything from that £200 will have gone on his fees, so don't pay him any more.
Contact the council via email, explain the situation and explain that you'll wait for the warrant to be returned then arrange to pay them direct.
Former General Manager of a nursing home, trained in music and classical guitar, MBA in contract law, expert legal commentator on bailiff law. enjoys PG tips. No not me, some screwball elsewhere
Syd Snitkin wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 11:20
You've moved abroad - nothing he can do. Bailiff's cannot request arrest warrants. Practically everything from that £200 will have gone on his fees, so don't pay him any more.
Contact the council via email, explain the situation and explain that you'll wait for the warrant to be returned then arrange to pay them direct.
I was under the impression that the magistrate could issue an arrest warrant and I worry if be arrested at the airport if I had to fly back to the UK for any reason.
Chickencoop18 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 11:28
Syd snitkin, can't I be arrested at an airport if I had to fly back to the UK for any reason?
That is the stuff of mythology.
You are only put on the wanted-list for high profile crime and terrorism.
Council tax is a civil matter.
There is no power for bailiffs to break open domestic property, and if you are abroad, the bailiff cannot even give you a statutory notice of enforcement, meaning legally complaint enforcement is a physical impossibility even if you leave a shiny new car outside as bait.
Chickencoop18 wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 11:28
What should I do? Ring them and pay once a month? Theres no way of paying online and I don't know how long I will have my UK phone. Will I be arrested? I feel sick with worry but to date have tried to communicate and co operate and offer payment, I don't know what else to do.
All councils enable council tax to be paid online.
Once paid, the enforcement power ends. The bailiff's fees are a lost cause because you are abroad.
Syd Snitkin wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 11:20
You've moved abroad - nothing he can do. Bailiff's cannot request arrest warrants. Practically everything from that £200 will have gone on his fees, so don't pay him any more.
Contact the council via email, explain the situation and explain that you'll wait for the warrant to be returned then arrange to pay them direct.
I was under the impression that the magistrate could issue an arrest warrant and I worry if be arrested at the airport if I had to fly back to the UK for any reason.
You cannot be arrested for not paying council tax.
Once all other avenues available to them have been exhausted, a council may apply to a magistrate for your committal to prison. You will then be given the opportunity to attend court and explain why you have not paid your tax.
The council may only apply for such a warrant IF you have willfully refused to pay the tax. If you do as Syd suggested, you are offering to pay the tax, so sending you to prison is not an option.
In your shoes, I would not pay the bailiffs anything and write the letter directly to the council as Syd has suggested. A bailiff will tell you all sorts of fairy stories because he works on commission and like all occupations that are paid in this way, the truth will always be distorted and exaggerated.
DO NOT pay anything directly to the council at this stage. By doing so, you run the risk of the council taking out the bailiff fees.
You must be clear that you need to write to the council and tell them that you will deal with the matter directly once the enforcement power ends. There is no incentive for you to do so earlier because you expose yourself to the risk of unwanted bailiff fees by doing so.
John The Baptist wrote: ↑28 Jul 2018 16:28
DO NOT pay anything directly to the council at this stage. By doing so, you run the risk of the council taking out the bailiff fees.
You must be clear that you need to write to the council and tell them that you will deal with the matter directly once the enforcement power ends. There is no incentive for you to do so earlier because you expose yourself to the risk of unwanted bailiff fees by doing so.
Okay, so before this forum I had offered to try and pay £50 a month to the enforcement company for previous years debt and £50 a month to the council for this year's bill. I have just received an email from the council telling me to instead pay the enforcement company £75 and the council £25. How should I respond to the council from here?
It's not a case of how to respond but more a case of what you want to do.
The easiest way for a quiet life is to do as the council have asked.
However, as you are abroad, you are protected from enforcement. Were you living abroad when the enforcement started? In which case, you won't have received a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiffs. Until you have been given notice, the bailiff cannot carry out any further acts.
In your shoes, I would write to the council, explaining that you reside abroad and that you have not been served notice of enforcement as prescribed in legislation. State that the bailiff should not be carrying on with enforcement until notice has been served. In any case, you are not obliged to deal with the bailiff, nor do you intend doing so. Inform the council that you will be happy to settle the outstanding tax part of the debt ONCE the bailiffs return the case to the council. There is no benefit to you dealing with this matter before then as you will end up paying unnecessary bailiff fees. Remind the council that you are not obliged to deal with their agents and inform them to contact you once the debt has been returned. Continuing with bailiff is futile as they are unable to enforce the debt. This is creating an avoidable delay in the debt being paid off.
John The Baptist wrote: ↑02 Aug 2018 12:09
It's not a case of how to respond but more a case of what you want to do.
The easiest way for a quiet life is to do as the council have asked.
However, as you are abroad, you are protected from enforcement. Were you living abroad when the enforcement started? In which case, you won't have received a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiffs. Until you have been given notice, the bailiff cannot carry out any further acts.
In your shoes, I would write to the council, explaining that you reside abroad and that you have not been served notice of enforcement as prescribed in legislation. State that the bailiff should not be carrying on with enforcement until notice has been served. In any case, you are not obliged to deal with the bailiff, nor do you intend doing so. Inform the council that you will be happy to settle the outstanding tax part of the debt ONCE the bailiffs return the case to the council. There is no benefit to you dealing with this matter before then as you will end up paying unnecessary bailiff fees. Remind the council that you are not obliged to deal with their agents and inform them to contact you once the debt has been returned. Continuing with bailiff is futile as they are unable to enforce the debt. This is creating an avoidable delay in the debt being paid off.
I think (I can't be sure as I only scanned it and chucked it in a pile of problems) I vaguely remember a letter from the enforcement company a cpl of weeks before I moved. They called at my address 2 days after I'd left the UK. The email I just received included the balance left with the agents so I can work out exactly howuch of the initial payment I'd made to them was used towards the debt and towards the fees.
As long as my receiving that letter doesn't change what you said above I will email council back and tell them I will pay them the £25 they have settled for voluntarily and I will await the return of remaining balance from enforcement company.
Can the enforcement company do anything to recover the outstanding amount of fees then?
John The Baptist wrote: ↑02 Aug 2018 13:54
DO NOT pay anybody anything until the debt has been returned to the council.
Just write to them, advising them of what you intend to do once the debt is returned.
John the Baptist, okay thank you.
I am going to email them today stating that I will pay the debt but only once the enforcement has been returned and that I await notice of that occurrence. I will mention that the bailiffs have no jurisdiction as I reside abroad, and not taking back the enforcement is merely delaying payment.
Shall I offer my new address (which is actually a po box as I'm way out in the sticks and there's no postal service) as they are currently insisting on sending letters to my parents as a care of address even though I've told them not to. And what about the fact that I truly have zero income at present? I'm purely living off my boyfriend. Will that have any bearing?
Sadly, for some unknown reason, bailiff issues seem to attract the most odd characters and individuals who for some reason best known to themselves seem to think that they are experts on the subject.
One such semi-literate individual embarrasses himself with his nonsense on an almost daily basis. The real situation is as follows:
A council may only apply for a warrant committing a debtor to prison IF there is no other alternative is available to them. Of course the court will decide on commitment - Nobody has suggested otherwise.
To be clear, practice notes and case law both state that a council MUST (not may) be satisfied that no other measures are available to them. A council would want this in any case because if a debtor is sent to prison, the debt becomes unenforceable. Magistrates are required to satisfy themselves that there is no alternative available other than committal before sending a debtor to prison. If other alternatives are available then the council will be guilty of maladministration if they fast track to committal.
In order to commit a debtor to prison, case law has determined that the debtor MUST be present in order to conduct a means enquiry. The court does not have the option as to whether it requires the debtor to attend or not - There is also a need to enquire into the conduct of the debtor in order to establish wilful refusal or culpable neglect. Whilst the matter is civil throughout, stricter evidence is required than just a "probability". For this to happen, the debtor must explain his income/expenditure, reasons for not paying, whether there is an ability to pay in the future.
In this case, there is no option to apply for committal because the debtor has made an offer to pay. This of course means that there has not been a wilful refusal or a culpable neglect.
